ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Food for thought
But with many SA players competing against the best of Ireland and Scotland on a regular basis and the best of France and England in the European cup competitions arguably there are more SA players exposed to European rugby now than there were previously
Absolutely. And I'm sure that this offers plenty of positives in its own right.
But my point was more around the experience of different coaching environments and team cultures at some of the best Champions Cup teams (none of the South African sides can be classified as such right now). At the moment, most young South African rugby players seem quite content to be staying at their franchises for their development. Or maybe they aren't as aggressively pursued as they once were.
Either way, it remains to be seen whether that's a good or a bad thing. But the point stands that the market situation has drastically changed and things haven't really evolved in a way that was particularly foreseeable in 2018.
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@Mauss said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
particularly foreseeable in 2018.
I think we do ourselves a disservice in this discussion if we use 2018 as a baseline date when discussing the Boks. 2018 was just SA reversing their one year decision to slightly tighten up overseas eligibility rules. In 2017 they put in a 30 cap minimum, which they reversed in 2018 back to their original policy of select anyone.
The Boks are good at the moment, but, they haven't been good the entirety of the time they've selected from overseas. For most of that time we've been beating them.
The Boks haven't unlocked a secret formula, they're just riding high at the moment. Additionally Ireland have been riding high the last few years by copying a model very similar to NZs.
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@Mauss South Africa rugby structure haven't change. But the importance of our lowest level changed a lot. Our top rugby schools is much more mixed race the before. Schoolboy rugby have a lot more media exposure via Super Schools. Rugby schools in Boland get double applications to what they can take in, ext. Meaning the factory is running on double speed compare to 2018. We struggle to get the Currie Cup calendar right which bring the below franchise rugby through. This year they got it right. Rassie use the CC to keep his Springboks for TRC match fit.
RG Snyman play for Leinster, Kleyn for Munster, Pollard and Wiese for Leicester. Rassie have been at Munster.
They would never been the players/coaches if it wasn't for that experience
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
the factory is running on double speed compare to 2018
Listen, I know more than enough about the rugbyfabriek. It was a great song in the ‘80s, I’m sure you can add a few verses for the game today and make another catchy tune (don’t know what rhymes with Griquas, though).
But this whole “the factory is running at double speed”-thing, I don’t find that particularly convincing. If that were truly the case, why aren’t we seeing more of its results? The state of SA Rugby outside of the Springboks isn’t looking particularly rosy. Age grade teams like SA Schools and SA U20 have struggled in recent years. The Currie Cup is filled with journeymen professionals who will never advance beyond that level. Meanwhile, the Blitzboks can’t find the new Senatla’s and Specman’s. The URC sides are good if unspectacular. Not particular signs of a system that is overproducing quality players.
The examples of Pollard, Kleyn and Snyman are arguments for my point, not yours (Wiese is no longer at Leicester, by the way, he plays for the Urayasu D-Rocks now, a Div 2 Japan side). Kleyn left South Africa when he was 23. He developed much of his professional game in Munster. He even played for Ireland before the Springboks. Snyman left in 2017 as a 22-year old, first to Japan, and then in 2020 to Munster. Pollard first left in 2015 for Japan as a 21-year old, then came back to SA and left again in 2020 at 26 for Montpellier.
All of these players left in their early to mid-twenties, developing further overseas and becoming better Springboks, as you say. But the current South African players in their early to mid-20s all seem to be staying. Guys like Henco van Wyk, Mpilo Gumede, Vincent Tshituka, David Kriel, Corne Rahl, Wandisile Simelane, are sticking around rather than moving abroad to some of the best high-performance environments. The recent one exception seems to be Asenathi Ntlabakanye, who is rumoured to be going to Toulouse. But big tighthead props, especially humongous ones like Ntlabakanye, remain their weight worth in gold in the Top14. The rest seem to be valued more like copper than gold at the moment.
But these others, sticking around in die Rugbyfabriek, are still taking a risk with their development. Because, like with any factory, overproduction is a sin. Commodities lose their value and they are destroyed in order to restore market value. And before you know it, Schuster’s song is no longer a light-hearted tune but a cautionary ballad, on the perils of sticking around too long when you really should be going.
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@Mauss said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
the factory is running on double speed compare to 2018
Listen, I know more than enough about the rugbyfabriek. It was a great song in the ‘80s, I’m sure you can add a few verses for the game today and make another catchy tune (don’t know what rhymes with Griquas, though).
But this whole “the factory is running at double speed”-thing, I don’t find that particularly convincing. If that were truly the case, why aren’t we seeing more of its results? The state of SA Rugby outside of the Springboks isn’t looking particularly rosy. Age grade teams like SA Schools and SA U20 have struggled in recent years. The Currie Cup is filled with journeymen professionals who will never advance beyond that level. Meanwhile, the Blitzboks can’t find the new Senatla’s and Specman’s. The URC sides are good if unspectacular. Not particular signs of a system that is overproducing quality players.
The examples of Pollard, Kleyn and Snyman are arguments for my point, not yours (Wiese is no longer at Leicester, by the way, he plays for the Urayasu D-Rocks now, a Div 2 Japan side). Kleyn left South Africa when he was 23. He developed much of his professional game in Munster. He even played for Ireland before the Springboks. Snyman left in 2017 as a 22-year old, first to Japan, and then in 2020 to Munster. Pollard first left in 2015 for Japan as a 21-year old, then came back to SA and left again in 2020 at 26 for Montpellier.
All of these players left in their early to mid-twenties, developing further overseas and becoming better Springboks, as you say. But the current South African players in their early to mid-20s all seem to be staying. Guys like Henco van Wyk, Mpilo Gumede, Vincent Tshituka, David Kriel, Corne Rahl, Wandisile Simelane, are sticking around rather than moving abroad to some of the best high-performance environments. The recent one exception seems to be Asenathi Ntlabakanye, who is rumoured to be going to Toulouse. But big tighthead props, especially humongous ones like Ntlabakanye, remain their weight worth in gold in the Top14. The rest seem to be valued more like copper than gold at the moment.
But these others, sticking around in die Rugbyfabriek, are still taking a risk with their development. Because, like with any factory, overproduction is a sin. Commodities lose their value and they are destroyed in order to restore market value. And before you know it, Schuster’s song is no longer a light-hearted tune but a cautionary ballad, on the perils of sticking around too long when you really should be going.
Love your work
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Sir Steve Hansen weighs into All Blacks overseas policy debate and warns 'copying' Springboks would be 'really dangerous'
Former All Blacks boss Sir Steve Hansen has sounded a warning to New Zealand Rugby about potentially changing their overseas policy.
Shag weighs in. He had me until he tried to convince me the Japanese league is great by offering the form of Ardie and Beaudy as evidence
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@OomPB Kwas and Griquas, makes sense. I should've known that a language as phonetically malleable as Afrikaans would have no issues with it.
Didn't know Mannetjies Roux played for Griquas (Griqualand West) back in the day. Something to be proud of.
