All Blacks vs Scotland
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
maybe our bench did better because of the Scottish bench?
There looked to be a lot clearer direction on play. I think I noticed Beauden with a lot less ball at first receiver too.
oh yes just pointing out there were two teams and yes TJP was really directing..
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@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
I don't know if that's his job, I could be confusing him with Mounga, but I do recall one direct run and offload for a sweet try. Could even be a different game though.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
I don't know if that's his job, I could be confusing him with Mounga, but I do recall one direct run and offload for a sweet try. Could even be a different game though.
Call it immediacy bias. But he didn't do it against the Scots. Too lateral, forced play behind the gain line, but did set up the winger for a great try. Just not our winger....
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
I don't know if that's his job, I could be confusing him with Mounga, but I do recall one direct run and offload for a sweet try. Could even be a different game though.
Call it immediacy bias. But he didn't do it against the Scots. Too lateral, forced play behind the gain line, but did set up the winger for a great try. Just not our winger....
Would have been nice to see him running onto passes from Smith/Mounga, rather than trying to save face from 15m back. But yeah.
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My final take on this is that I think @Stargazer has it right in that Havili is a very handy squaddie who can do a job in most backline positions against the minnows or in an injury crisis. But I think we not only missed a great opportunity to continue building Jordies confidence and form at 12 against a decent opposition, we went one further and put him back to 15 despite all evidence suggesting that shuffling him around fucks with his form. It's no surprise he didn't play as well as he has on the weekend.
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
IIRC he was pretty solid with very few errors, great defence, good distribution & support play and used his kicking game well. Also did a shed-load of tidying-up. If that suits the game-plan then fine, but he's just too inconsistent for me.
I don't really care about any miracle, world-class stuff from Jordie, I just want a good solid 12 who does his job well and he seems to fit the bill.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pas was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
Yeah it's an interesting one though eh - Christie supporters could argue that he wasn't able to perform because he was inside an awful 10. Beauden supporters, well he was inside an awful 12 and outside an awful 9. ALB was outside an awful 9-10-12. I've already seen Clarke excused because he was outside a horrible 9-10-12-13....but that gets put to bed when you see the other wing getting many votes for MOTM on debut.
I'm happy to blame it all on the ginger TBH
Is it just me or has Christie's passing from the ruck and in general got way slower? Really noticed way more snap when TJP came on.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
IIRC he was pretty solid with very few errors, great defence, good distribution & support play and used his kicking game well. Also did a shed-load of tidying-up. If that suits the game-plan then fine, but he's just too inconsistent for me.
I don't really care about any miracle, world-class stuff from Jordie, I just want a good solid 12 who does his job well and he seems to fit the bill.
Totally agree. Just rewatched the Wales game because CF Sr hadn't seen it. Satisfying forward dominated performance and JB complemented that with his hard straight running that got us over the gain line consistently
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
That final part would make sense if they were looking to blood a backup 12. You can hardly claim that Havili hasn't had plenty of tests there
Two different arguments there. The first is whether you play JB in every Test and hope he doesn't get broken - which is a big risk based on the death-wish that playing in an AB midfield seems to be - and the second is whether DH is a viable backup at 12.
If anything Havili should have played at 15 to see what he actually offers to the squad now that JB apparently has a lock on 12.
Maybe they wanted an experienced 15 to start and didn't think DH was that player? I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I want to see us use the Wales game plan vs the Poms. Try to smash them in the forwards for 80 minutes
To an extent yes, but their forwards are a little more shrewd than the Welsh. Would like to see the backs used a bit more, conditions permitting.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
I just don't get the use of Perofeta. Has he crapped in someone's bed or something?
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I want to see us use the Wales game plan vs the Poms. Try to smash them in the forwards for 80 minutes
To an extent yes, but their forwards are a little more shrewd than the Welsh. Would like to see the backs used a bit more, conditions permitting.
Of course. But a more direct game plan hitched to our backline rather than the helter skelter stuff from earlier in the year, and the too lateral too early stuff of circa 2019
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
I just don't get the use of Perofeta. Has he crapped in someone's bed or something?
I think it is ridiculous. Either you give him a decent crack or you don't. If we kick him to the curb now he can't even front for a lower tier nation, after playing less than 10 minutes total test football to date
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pas was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
Yeah it's an interesting one though eh - Christie supporters could argue that he wasn't able to perform because he was inside an awful 10. Beauden supporters, well he was inside an awful 12 and outside an awful 9. ALB was outside an awful 9-10-12. I've already seen Clarke excused because he was outside a horrible 9-10-12-13....but that gets put to bed when you see the other wing getting many votes for MOTM on debut.
I'm happy to blame it all on the ginger TBH
Is it just me or has Christie's passing from the ruck and in general got way slower? Really noticed way more snap when TJP came on.
To be fair, that's a common, age old thing - reserve halfback comes on and immediately looks better.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
Unless your 15 is the best 12 in the team.....
