All Blacks vs Scotland
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pass was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Ah, OK. My take is JB was at 15 as Jordan was out and they thought DH was too risky at 15. And/or they wanted to shift JB to 12 to see how he went with ALB but the way the game panned out screwed that.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
What universe you living in today, bro?
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The change in our play when the subs came on was dramatic. Was it superior players coming to the rescue, or the change to a more direct game plan similar to the Welsh game, or both?
The NH Tour is showing some players can do a job for us and showing others up. Now we just need Fozzie to correctly read the tea leaves
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Pretty much agree with all of that. Based on what I've seen, RTS deserves more games and development as well.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The change in our play when the subs came on was dramatic. Was it superior players coming to the rescue, or the change to a more direct game plan similar to the Welsh game, or both?
I think it was both. BB was taking it to the line much more which had a big impact. Haven't re-watched the game, but ALB moving into 12 seemed to make a difference as well.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The change in our play when the subs came on was dramatic. Was it superior players coming to the rescue, or the change to a more direct game plan similar to the Welsh game, or both?
I think it was both. BB was taking it to the line much more which had a big impact. Haven't re-watched the game, but ALB moving into 12 seemed to make a difference as well.
I noticed we tried to get forward more, instead of trying to play with the ball behind the gain line
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pas was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
Yeah it's an interesting one though eh - Christie supporters could argue that he wasn't able to perform because he was inside an awful 10. Beauden supporters, well he was inside an awful 12 and outside an awful 9. ALB was outside an awful 9-10-12. I've already seen Clarke excused because he was outside a horrible 9-10-12-13....but that gets put to bed when you see the other wing getting many votes for MOTM on debut.
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maybe our bench did better because of the Scottish bench?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
maybe our bench did better because of the Scottish bench?
There looked to be a lot clearer direction on play. I think I noticed Beauden with a lot less ball at first receiver too.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pas was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
Yeah it's an interesting one though eh - Christie supporters could argue that he wasn't able to perform because he was inside an awful 10. Beauden supporters, well he was inside an awful 12 and outside an awful 9. ALB was outside an awful 9-10-12. I've already seen Clarke excused because he was outside a horrible 9-10-12-13....but that gets put to bed when you see the other wing getting many votes for MOTM on debut.
I'm happy to blame it all on the ginger TBH
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
Was JB really the only viable option at 15?
RM was being rested so BB at 10.
DH has played what, dozen tests at 12? His use in the squad now is as a utility so maybe best to test him in other positions, like maybe fullback....
Or maybe show more than 50 seconds of trust in SP.
Maybe they wanted experience at 15 & 10.
Then why not DH to 15?
Inexperience.
DH has no experience at fullback?
As I said, they probably selected JB at 15 as they deemed DH was inexperienced/not good enough there.
Btw you haven't explained how selecting JB at 15 and making him kicker can be called managing his workload.
It was about managing RM's workload. Playing BB at 10 meant someone else at 15. WJ wasn't available and, after consideration (and probably talking to the players) they chose JB as the best option.
My original point was the risk of playing JB at 12, every Test until RWC2023, to build combination/experience. Fine in theory, but there's a risk the plan unravelling if he gets injured and there's bugger all backup. Apart from blaming Foster, what do we do then?
That final part would make sense if they were looking to blood a backup 12. You can hardly claim that Havili hasn't had plenty of tests there. He'd pretty much been accepted as the incumbent until a freakish series of injuries finally resulted JB playing in a position a certain person had loudly recommended he play since 2017. If anything Havili should have played at 15 to see what he actually offers to the squad now that JB apparently has a lock on 12. Which is hilarious in itself when you consider people were ridiculing the idea of him even playing 12 5 minutes ago.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
maybe our bench did better because of the Scottish bench?
There looked to be a lot clearer direction on play. I think I noticed Beauden with a lot less ball at first receiver too.
oh yes just pointing out there were two teams and yes TJP was really directing..
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@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
I don't know if that's his job, I could be confusing him with Mounga, but I do recall one direct run and offload for a sweet try. Could even be a different game though.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
I don't know if that's his job, I could be confusing him with Mounga, but I do recall one direct run and offload for a sweet try. Could even be a different game though.
Call it immediacy bias. But he didn't do it against the Scots. Too lateral, forced play behind the gain line, but did set up the winger for a great try. Just not our winger....
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel didn't Havili play well when we spanked the WORLD CHAMPION SPRINGBOKS at home? I can see the thinking if so. Especially if the coaches, like quite a few on here, mistakenly think BB is a more direct ten.
Probably deserves a rewatch. Did DH run hard and make the gain line consistently during that test?
I don't know if that's his job, I could be confusing him with Mounga, but I do recall one direct run and offload for a sweet try. Could even be a different game though.
Call it immediacy bias. But he didn't do it against the Scots. Too lateral, forced play behind the gain line, but did set up the winger for a great try. Just not our winger....
Would have been nice to see him running onto passes from Smith/Mounga, rather than trying to save face from 15m back. But yeah.
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My final take on this is that I think @Stargazer has it right in that Havili is a very handy squaddie who can do a job in most backline positions against the minnows or in an injury crisis. But I think we not only missed a great opportunity to continue building Jordies confidence and form at 12 against a decent opposition, we went one further and put him back to 15 despite all evidence suggesting that shuffling him around fucks with his form. It's no surprise he didn't play as well as he has on the weekend.
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
