All Blacks vs Scotland
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Just finished watching the match. Did my best to watch it on my phone at my son's athletic meet but was too frustrating so I binned it. ... A few points I think worth making.
I see a lot of criticism on this thread of the wingers, namely Clarke. I'm not sure what you expect, as this was easily the worst 10 / midfield combination I think I've seen at All Black level. Barrett had I think the worst game I've seen him play, ALB was WAY off the pace & Havili didn't do jack shit either (nifty pass to the Graham aside).
Papali'i was awesome. As was Ardie. This should be the first 2 names on the team sheet. Sorry Sam (C) but your time is up. Papali'i just offers so much more now. Yes, I'm sure you are an inspiring leader and I have doubt about the level you get stuck in, but Dalton is simply better. Happens to everybody sorry fella.
Akira Ioane was handy as well. Actually, I don't have too much criticism of the forwards. On the whole I thought they did ok. On the line defence was superb & I don't remember too much going wrong with the scrum or line out. I was fast forwarding the gaps in play though, so I might have missed something.
Bench had huge impact. Rieko Ioane / Perenara changed the game in our favour.
Best Scottish backline I think I've ever seen. They have some proper war horses up front too so it's not surprise they gave us a really good rattle. Russell, Hogg, VDM, Graham all played significantly better than their opposite numbers. We did really well to win, in my view.
Mehrtens can fuck off back to Australia with his commentary. It's like Marshall part 2. Must call doubt on AB calls, who cares about the rules.
Looked like a fun day out at Murrayfield. Although seeing Doddie Weir was soul destroying. Hate that stuff. Hate it.
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@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Just finished watching the match. Did my best to watch it on my phone at my son's athletic meet but was too frustrating so I binned it. ... A few points I think worth making.
I see a lot of criticism on this thread of the wingers, namely Clarke. I'm not sure what you expect, as this was easily the worst 10 / midfield combination I think I've seen at All Black level. Barrett had I think the worst game I've seen him play, ALB was WAY off the pace & Havili didn't do jack shit either (nifty pass to the Graham aside).
Papali'i was awesome. As was Ardie. This should be the first 2 names on the team sheet. Sorry Sam (C) but your time is up. Papali'i just offers so much more now. Yes, I'm sure you are an inspiring leader and I have doubt about the level you get stuck in, but Dalton is simply better. Happens to everybody sorry fella.
Akira Ioane was handy as well. Actually, I don't have too much criticism of the forwards. On the whole I thought they did ok. On the line defence was superb & I don't remember too much going wrong with the scrum or line out. I was fast forwarding the gaps in play though, so I might have missed something.
Bench had huge impact. Rieko Ioane / Perenara changed the game in our favour.
Best Scottish backline I think I've ever seen. They have some proper war horses up front too so it's not surprise they gave us a really good rattle. Russell, Hogg, VDM, Graham all played significantly better than their opposite numbers. We did really well to win, in my view.
Mehrtens can fuck off back to Australia with his commentary. It's like Marshall part 2. Must call doubt on AB calls, who cares about the rules.
Looked like a fun day out at Murrayfield. Although seeing Doddie Weir was soul destroying. Hate that stuff. Hate it.
Really upsetting. To see a formerly strapping lock in that condition is heartbreaking.
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@bayimports said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.I agree with what you are saying however I have now seen enough of DH to say he shouldn't even be in the equation. Tried and failed enough. If we need a back-up combo then ALB with little rugby in his legs looked better. Work on him as the back up. DH can go prepare for the Crusaders
If Havilii is gonna play and given his lack of attacking ooomf compared to others he’d better be workmanlike and mistake free at the very least. That pass to Graham may as well have been gift wrapped. Awful stuff.
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@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
Against a fired up decent Scotland pack, I think they did ok.
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@bayimports said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.I agree with what you are saying however I have now seen enough of DH to say he shouldn't even be in the equation. Tried and failed enough. If we need a back-up combo then ALB with little rugby in his legs looked better. Work on him as the back up. DH can go prepare for the Crusaders
I get that to. I was only using DH as an example as he seems to be the one currently in that backup spot. The arguments are that we should play JB/RI every game for as long as possible.
Given that both will have decent workloads in Super I'm not convinced that we need to overload them with minutes however the 2023 schedule isn't known yet and is a complete balls up due to the FIFA stadia use requirements. (No games on any stadia used by FIFA for 4 weeks before their first game). At the moment there will be no EP games for the ABs and FBS is the only likely 'usual' place available once FIFA have finished there early August. We will end up at Mt Smart.
Fot that reson I won't think too far ahead on this strategy.Resting Ioane was fine. Jordie started this game and will start the next. Insane to move him from 12 when he's playing anyway.
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@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
Against a fired up decent Scotland pack, I think they did ok.
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
the scottish pack was really good. their set piece was excellent, they worked really hard in the tight stuff, and scrambled hard. And yet when we had the ball, we actually had the better of them, at the ruck, and on the run.
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@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
Against a fired up decent Scotland pack, I think they did ok.
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
It was….then it wasn’t….now it is again.
As I said before they COULD NOT have had a better chance and they would have put Oz or SA to the sword if they played like that. The mental block is still well and truly in place which is good news for Foster in terms of avoiding another “first”
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Regarding our defense.
We let in two tries:
- one a debatable PT after DP was obstructed by the ref
- one an intercept
I think it was our misfiring attack that kept them in it.
Not that I'm advocating for McLeod.
Also, that ball ingoal took a 90° leg break. For me no probable as Hogg was only ever going straight.
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That pass from DH was like watching a car crash happen in slow motion. When he got the ball and started running to set up the player outside him I said to myself 'Don't fuck it, don't fuck it.'
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@game_film said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
If the head coach believes that Perofeta is only good for 60 seconds a test match then deep down he also believes he’s not good enough to play at this level. It ain’t a development squad. Quit f’n round and pick the best players. If you want to rest players then fine, but don’t pick someone who you don’t have the confidence in to play when it counts. Pero isn’t gonna learn anything coming on with 20 to go if they’re up 30 is he? Fozzy knows he’s not gonna play Pero off the bench in the QF next year so why bother now?
Probably that was the plan, but the lack of discipline in the team and general crap play meant they had to concentrate on not losing.
So why even play him then? He's gonna be marked down as having a cap vs Scotland but learned or applied nowt.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
That pass from DH was like watching a car crash happen in slow motion. When he got the ball and started running to set up the player outside him I said to myself 'Don't fuck it, don't fuck it.'
he's so friggen slow on his feet that, instead of drawing two and putting BB away, he just allowed the winger to perfectly position himself.
And people think this guy is a fullback utility option. Fuck me dead. As ordinary a 20+ test AB as i can remember seeing.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Regarding our defense.
We let in two tries:
- one a debatable PT after DP was obstructed by the ref
- one an intercept
I think it was our misfiring attack that kept them in it.
Not that I'm advocating for McLeod.
Also, that ball ingoal took a 90° leg break. For me no probable as Hogg was only ever going straight.
I have my doubts too. With the bounce of the ball I am njt sure if a try was likely. Don't know if the TMO watched the same replays as us, but they only showed the end on replay once at the beginning and only showed that angle again once the decision had been made.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
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Don't get all the abusive comments on the thread I just read including repeated outright nasty ones on individuals. Top ten nations are not that far apart in capability. We correctly tested some of our backup combos and will hopefully have our top 23 primed v England in 6 days. And we won by 8 points.
I think Scotland reacted well to our fierce start and then played the ref to slow things down and frustrate the AB's. He bought into the pull back thing at scrums and allowed some cynical turnovers for players not supporting their weight. Playing the ref turned the match around and we did not compete for a long period. Far too many missed or ineffective tackles too. (and praise is posted for a turnover by the player who missed the tackle prior to it..)
When Tjp and front row came on they turned around that flow by giving the ref more reason to support us. Was good to see the team get the bit between their teeth and gel at long last.
Card for ALB was deserved but I thought he did the right thing in timing a tackle attempt to hit the instant he thought Hogg would regather to get the ball down before the dead ball line. Sadly for him Hogg didn't get the bounce.
Interesting to see no mention of AB's current winning streak or rise in the World rankings. Very patchy performance overall but great debut by Telea and some real tactical impact from the bench.
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@game_film said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
If the head coach believes that Perofeta is only good for 60 seconds a test match then deep down he also believes he’s not good enough to play at this level. It ain’t a development squad. Quit f’n round and pick the best players. If you want to rest players then fine, but don’t pick someone who you don’t have the confidence in to play when it counts. Pero isn’t gonna learn anything coming on with 20 to go if they’re up 30 is he? Fozzy knows he’s not gonna play Pero off the bench in the QF next year so why bother now?
Perofeta's main purpose is to prevent opportunities to see if RTS can be next year's AB version of SBW
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.So, JB for 5 non-consecutive tests and DH for 5 non-consecutive tests? Da faq are you hoping to achieve? I'm asking again, 2019 was a fucking shambles, and you want to go into a QF against 2 teams we need to be play like we've never played before under Foster to win? It's 2022 with 10 tests to go. It's not 20 fucking 20 with 4 years of development opportunities to go.
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if Perofeta couldn't get on in that game, where our 10 and 15 were playing deeply deeply ordinary games, then he is never getting on, and should not be there. Right now he's the equivalent of the guy filling in not batting, not bowling, and fielding fine leg to fine leg.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
if Perofeta couldn't get on in that game, where our 10 and 15 were playing deeply deeply ordinary games, then he is never getting on, and should not be there. Right now he's the equivalent of the guy filling in not batting, not bowling, and fielding fine leg to fine leg.
So he's Mark Chapman then
