All Blacks vs Scotland
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I haven't seen the game, but despite ALBs apparent poor showing, have we finally got to the point where the axis just has to be AS, RM, JB, RI, with ALB on the bench ?
If JB gets injured, I'd much rather ALB at 12 than RTS, DH, JG, especially with the pace of RI outside him.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
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@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I haven't seen the game, but despite ALBs apparent poor showing, have we finally got to the point where the axis just has to be AS, RM, JB, RI, with ALB on the bench ?
If JB gets injured, I'd much rather ALB at 12 than RTS, DH, JG, especially with the pace of RI outside him.
ALB on the bench in the first XV is where I expect him to end up.
I will admit that I did a bit of skipping in my watch but I didn't see reason to say ALB had a poor showing. When he moved to 12 he straightened things more than DH did. He never got much opportunity to straighten at 13. -
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
Was JB really the only viable option at 15?
RM was being rested so BB at 10.
DH has played what, dozen tests at 12? His use in the squad now is as a utility so maybe best to test him in other positions, like maybe fullback....
Or maybe show more than 50 seconds of trust in SP.
Maybe they wanted experience at 15 & 10.
Then why not DH to 15?
Inexperience.
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Think we missed Lomax today.
Big raps for the young props, the finds of the year for me. -
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
Was JB really the only viable option at 15?
RM was being rested so BB at 10.
DH has played what, dozen tests at 12? His use in the squad now is as a utility so maybe best to test him in other positions, like maybe fullback....
Or maybe show more than 50 seconds of trust in SP.
Maybe they wanted experience at 15 & 10.
Then why not DH to 15?
Inexperience.
DH has no experience at fullback? Btw you haven't explained how selecting JB at 15 and making him kicker can be called managing his workload.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
I think ALB is that guy at 12, especially inside RI
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@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
I think ALB is, that guy at 12, especially inside RI
Was he really any good or did it just appear that way compared to Havilii ?
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@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
I think ALB is, that guy at 12, especially inside RI
Was he really any good or did it just appear that way compared to Havilii ?
I haven't watched the game, sounded like he had a mare. But I'd still take him on the bench over Havili, RTS , Goodhue if we are playing RM at 10 and RI 13
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@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
I think ALB is, that guy at 12, especially inside RI
Was he really any good or did it just appear that way compared to Havilii ?
I haven't watched the game, sounded like he had a mare. But I'd still take him on the bench over Havili, RTS , Goodhue if we are playing RM at 10 and RI 13
Same. I don't get the shit ALB is getting. Was anybody saying ALB should be dumped prior to this game? Sure, he didn't have the best of games, but his past performances suggest he is a better player than that. He is only just back from a decent injury break, with a season of Super Rugby under his belt he will be good enough to cover the midfield from the bench.
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@Tim said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Lienert-Brown fans: he is absolute shit. Should never be anywhere near international rugby. He's slow, he's a bum. Rieko is 100x the player. Deal with it.
Tbf he's played almost zero rugby this year. Which is pretty hilarious actually. Absolutely fine to throw him into the starting team despite a massive injury layoff and no rugby, but someone like SP is not even deemed good enough for a whole minute of gametime. And DH cant be trusted at fullback apparently. It's a complete farce.
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@TeWaio said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Jumbled thoughts:
Game really turned when Codie and TJ came on, fair play to both of them - I thought they were past it.We were on other side. You're dead right that after Codie and TJP came out the AB intensity lifted demonstrably, the forwards went about their work, and even BB pulled his finger out!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
I think ALB is, that guy at 12, especially inside RI
Was he really any good or did it just appear that way compared to Havilii ?
I haven't watched the game, sounded like he had a mare. But I'd still take him on the bench over Havili, RTS , Goodhue if we are playing RM at 10 and RI 13
Same. I don't get the shit ALB is getting. Was anybody saying ALB should be dumped prior to this game? Sure, he didn't have the best of games, but his past performances suggest he is a better player than that. He is only just back from a decent injury break, with a season of Super Rugby under his belt he will be good enough to cover the midfield from the bench.
Totally agree. He is just rusty. He is a good player that need more game time to get his mojo back.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
That point makes no sense. Giving Havili more time to show he isn't fit to be a backup 12 doesn't provide a solution to the hypothetical question.
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After watching this morning some thoughts.
I am Groot had an off game, think he missed as many tackles as he made. Nepo made more runs than normal which was good, but replacement props in general looked to add more stability to scrum.
ST always good and CT also good when he came on.
SW looked ok although did not dominate and Scott Barrett had another strong performance.
Akira strong early, good line out option. Didn't do enough though I would have thought to keep his detractors at bay. Frizzel was solid and more direct when he came on, not as athletic or versatile but looked busy enough to keep the six position a lottery for the selectors. Personally I could argue that in Akira's first 20 he was just as busy, but not my call.
Dalton flat footed on one occasion that led to a try, but made many tackles elsewhere. Him and Ardie both were industrious and strong throughout.9-13 sucked big hairy balls.
FC, DH should not be seen in black again. Sloppy and replacements out performed both of them. This is not the first time either
BB at 10 should not be seen at 10 again unless injury. Our second try was JB doing a kick pass with accuracy that BB failed over and over again.
ALB improved as the game went on, didn't perform that well at 13 although improved when he moved to 12. It could have been just the extra game time in his legs, but his best period was later in the game. FC had also disappeared by then too.
Caleb continues to beat defenders with ball in hand, but makes errors misses about the same in defence.
JB not the worst of the backline for sure, had some positives and negatives, did get the try assist with a kick pass, but last two performances at 12 would have me keeping him there.
Mark Talea looks like a right winger at this level and will help if he gets more outings.
TJP looks rejuvenated and great impact from the bench, would like to see that version of TJP again for impact.
Seriously agree with one comment above, how does Perofeta get one minute? BB was not great at 10 today, probably also not helped by FC, if we are looking for supposed back ups, we need to give people "who have not failed frequently like FC and DH" opportunities to perform again. One minute does not help.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.I agree with what you are saying however I have now seen enough of DH to say he shouldn't even be in the equation. Tried and failed enough. If we need a back-up combo then ALB with little rugby in his legs looked better. Work on him as the back up. DH can go prepare for the Crusaders
