So what did we learn from Bled2?
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Jordie is and always has been a natural fit at 12. At 15 he is always going to be a little bit slow and lacks a bit of evasiveness to be a long term keeper. At some point he'll probably cop a card for leading with elbows and forearms hitting it up, but hey.
Rieko Ioane frequently does some pretty amazing stuff - particularly in defence - but blows about one try per game. And in close games we don't get a whole lot of opportunities to blow. Clarke has the same problem: can't find support, can't keep movements going. Of course he's a bit of a defensive liability at present too, so that's not great. Both those guys in one backline at the moment means you're going to leave points out there.
So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him? -
@Duluth said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.
The AB fullback role seems very similar to the Blues fullback role now. Perofeta would be a good fit for that pattern.
But we don't even know if he's capable of playing Test rugby yet
The AB's constantly being under pressure and having no 'easier' Tests has stalled any depth building
Yeah, that's been a real problem this year. We've also not had any tests against tier 2 nations to give people time in the black jumper, going straight into tests against a settled Irish team was tough. Perofeta was outstanding in SR and hadn't been sighted since which is a problem.
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Thinking about cards for Jordie, did he get a red when he caught the ball with his knees up that time? That's all I can remember.
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@reprobate said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him?
Yes.
Long answer: yes - brings a point of difference. ALB was amazing, but needs to re-establish himself after hte injuries. He's the long term guy, it's becoming the Ardie at 7 argument again; whatever you think of him as an 8, that's his position, that's where he's playing. 7 cover at best.
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@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Thinking about cards for Jordie, did he get a red when he caught the ball with his knees up that time? That's all I can remember.
Yeah that sprung to mind too. Red or yellow I can't remember.
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@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.
Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.
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@No-Quarter A bit of devil's advocate, as well.
Right now, my maths says we don't win RWC2023 - we're a one-in-ten chance, so we may need to spin the bottle.
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@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.
Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.
you are shameless. but it's not easy when you see your favourite player run right past like that.
That bench spot is ALB's when he comes back.
Have to say though, i can't say i thought JB would slot in that well first time up. It may have even been his best test ever. Remarkable.
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@mariner4life said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.
Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.
you are shameless. but it's not easy when you see your favourite player run right past like that.
That bench spot is ALB's when he comes back.
Have to say though, i can't say i thought JB would slot in that well first time up. It may have even been his best test ever. Remarkable.
I agree, it's his best Test that I can remember. Certainly the best performance by a 12 in over three years.
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I also wonder if Dave Rennie and Wallabies took a big learning. I would think at some stage someone in ABs camp would of pointed to the Dave and the Wallabies camp we was robbed etc etc in the papers and prehaps wondered if they were going to try and prove it right. As a coach I would of made sure players were aware etc (have done similar stuff myself) , and why when I coached I would never hear an excuse for why we lost.
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@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.
Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.
Are you Havili's agent?
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@Dan54 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I also wonder if Dave Rennie and Wallabies took a big learning. I would think at some stage someone in ABs camp would of pointed to the Dave and the Wallabies camp we was robbed etc etc in the papers and prehaps wondered if they were going to try and prove it right. As a coach I would of made sure players were aware etc (have done similar stuff myself) , and why when I coached I would never hear an excuse for why we lost.
Agreed. Wallabies are generally more successful when they go with the 'ambush' tactic. 10 days of ref whinging and weird shit like Rennie calling out Rieko a week after for something he said on the field definitely backfired.
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@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.
This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.
I think with Mounga, Beaudy and Jordie in the same backline you've got ample playmakers. I think one of the reasons Mounga struggles at times to assert himself against good rush defences is lack of support. Hopefully now he'll have that in spades.
We need to accept Rieko is no Conrad Smith, just like Conrad Smith was no Rieko Ioane. Different strengths, weaknesses. Rieko will get better in terms of pass choices and positioning then putting his outsides into space but I'll take his searing pace and punch at Centre for the time being.
Clarke is even younger and inexperienced so continue to bring him along. He'll have another 6-8 tests under his belt by RWC so coming along nicely. His work in the air was superb, unexpected IMO.
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@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.
At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.
We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.
But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?
On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.
Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.
I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.
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@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting closeI know he’s playing well, but it’s pretty early days. He hasn’t even reached Mealamu level let alone the lofty heights of Fitzy.
Agree with this, unfortunately though the gap between our best hooker and next best playing is quite significant. Taylor did some good things around the field, but he is completely unreliable at the line out, reminds me of Anton Oliver and if I wanted that (which I dont), I would buy a Delorean or a hot tub
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@bayimports said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting closeI know he’s playing well, but it’s pretty early days. He hasn’t even reached Mealamu level let alone the lofty heights of Fitzy.
Agree with this, unfortunately though the gap between our best hooker and next best playing is quite significant. Taylor did some good things around the field, but he is completely unreliable at the line out, reminds me of Anton Oliver and if I wanted that (which I dont), I would buy a Delorean or a hot tub
Set piece wins games, the hooker is vital to that and if there is any inconsistency issue then they need to go. In saying that even the best hookers have the odd fuck up. Does anyone have the stats of lineout success by hooker in super rugby or even test level?
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@Bovidae said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Jordie needs to be used at 12 on the EOYT, even just to see how effective he is against NH opposition. He's not going to have the luxury of running at Foley every test.
Yeah he might get a chance to run at Finn Russell who makes Merhts look like Jerry Collins.
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@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.
At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.
We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.
But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?
On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.
Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.
I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.
Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12
