Bledisloe 1

Crucial

For me Cane and Frizell are heavy duty flankers, e.g. hit rucks well. They're never going to compete in the loose with Ardie, Akira and Hos, who are all much faster. But a LF trio needs balance, and with two heavy duty types a flier works well, at least in first 50.
Akira and Ardie are a bit samey and not great together against teams such as Boks and Pumas.
I'm fine with the selection, and main query is what happens at 50 when Cane off, and Paps and Akira on. Does Scooter go to lock and give Big Sam a rest? Or does Akira pick up where Hos left off?
I imagine that decision will be driven by how well the Wobbly five are going.

Yes, bang on. It is a bit of a rope-a-dope approach with the loose forwards. Not that they go all wild in the last 30 but the idea seems to be to blunt the opposition and change their thinking. Get them looking wide where turnovers and mistakes happen.
SF is a more limited player than AI but that's what they want at the start. Same with Cane.

Crucial

@MN5 said in Bledisloe 1:

@pakman said in Bledisloe 1:

For me Cane and Frizell are heavy duty flankers, e.g. hit rucks well. They're never going to compete in the loose with Ardie, Akira and Hos, who are all much faster. But a LF trio needs balance, and with two heavy duty types a flier works well, at least in first 50.
Akira and Ardie are a bit samey and not great together against teams such as Boks and Pumas.
I'm fine with the selection, and main query is what happens at 50 when Cane off, and Paps and Akira on. Does Scooter go to lock and give Big Sam a rest? Or does Akira pick up where Hos left off?
I imagine that decision will be driven by how well the Wobbly five are going.

Is Frizzel lighter and therefore faster than Akira ? Anyone got any stats ?

I'd say that Akira is probably the faster. SF isn't there to be fast though. We need players that can nullify the power game of the opposition until those power levels reduce and the faster guys can take advantage.

As far as the swap around with the locks and who goes off, I guess that will depend on who has had to do the most graft up to that point and how their numbers are. The analysts these days have that info available in real time and can tell who is slowing down the most or becoming less effective.

Kirwan

@pakman said in Bledisloe 1:

For me Cane and Frizell are heavy duty flankers, e.g. hit rucks well. They're never going to compete in the loose with Ardie, Akira and Hos, who are all much faster. But a LF trio needs balance, and with two heavy duty types a flier works well, at least in first 50.
Akira and Ardie are a bit samey and not great together against teams such as Boks and Pumas.
I'm fine with the selection, and main query is what happens at 50 when Cane off, and Paps and Akira on. Does Scooter go to lock and give Big Sam a rest? Or does Akira pick up where Hos left off?
I imagine that decision will be driven by how well the Wobbly five are going.

This is the Fern narrative, yes. But ignores the fact that Akira and Frizzell are basically the same size (not much different either from SB too), and you also have to ignore all the tight work Akira does as well.

In other words it's bullshit.

Oh, and Akira is significantly faster than Frizzell. Is better at getting over the advantage line as well.

Because he has better skills, and pace, Foster seems to want him to play a Read role out wide. Just play him tight and you get Frizzell+.

Amusingly, when he came on in the last game and stayed tight he got criticised for that too.

KiwiMurph

A bit of rain around Melbourne today/tonight so it works out well that the game is at Marvel and they can close the roof.

It was a nice day yesterday and the roof was open so the surface should be in good nick.

Crucial

@Kirwan said in Bledisloe 1:

@pakman said in Bledisloe 1:

For me Cane and Frizell are heavy duty flankers, e.g. hit rucks well. They're never going to compete in the loose with Ardie, Akira and Hos, who are all much faster. But a LF trio needs balance, and with two heavy duty types a flier works well, at least in first 50.
Akira and Ardie are a bit samey and not great together against teams such as Boks and Pumas.
I'm fine with the selection, and main query is what happens at 50 when Cane off, and Paps and Akira on. Does Scooter go to lock and give Big Sam a rest? Or does Akira pick up where Hos left off?
I imagine that decision will be driven by how well the Wobbly five are going.

This is the Fern narrative, yes. But ignores the fact that Akira and Frizzell are basically the same size (not much different either from SB too), and you also have to ignore all the tight work Akira does as well.

In other words it's bullshit.

Oh, and Akira is significantly faster than Frizzell. Is better at getting over the advantage line as well.

Because he has better skills, and pace, Foster seems to want him to play a Read role out wide. Just play him tight and you get Frizzell+.

Amusingly, when he came on in the last game and stayed tight he got criticised for that too.

They are players that take a different approach to contact and that is very plain to see. Calling it a 'fern narrative' is blind.
Have a watch of the first test against Argentina again. When SF carries into contact he puts the head down and drives. AI stands flat-footed and goes upright using his upper body strength to try and gain ground. If you want a good reference watch the 77th minute. He does one carry where he actually shuffles backward before moving forward. Goes upright, Ardie style and forces his way through the first tackler to get over the advantage line. A couple of phases later he tries the same thing but this time we lose momentum because he gets caught upright and driven back. Just after AI comes on (and he is obviously planted wide) he gets to clear two rucks. Both times he pushes and grabs opposition players away from the ruck but leaves them standing.
Now compare that to SF earlier in the game. His carries are head down charges and his ruck work is hard with a shoulder, sitting players on their arses.

Both are effective and have different styles. If, as a coach, you have a plan to use one to soften and one to range later in the game, which way around would you do it? Logically, AI is the more athletic, faster, 'steppier' player of the two so it's pretty obvious that he suits the latter role.
The days of 'starter' always being judged as the better player are gone. There are roles to play.

ACT Crusader

@bayimports said in Bledisloe 1:

some hyperbolic shit on this thread and it is only about 2 players in the same team lol. Personally I think they offer different strengths, SF did put in some big games recently but I still think Akira has a higher ceiling. Even the stats shared for me only show part of the story. Carries, tackles, missed tackles, metres gained cover part of it, anyone with access to find stats like number of cleanouts, successful cleanouts v penalties conceded?, someone used to track (1st 3 players to a ruck) etc, Im sure some platform would have them. Probably would put a few of the other forwards to shame knowing those numbers, but might help shape opinions more objectively including my own..

Bro, forget the stats. All we need are a few short well edited video clips of highlights, maybe with a bit of rap/hip-hop music playing in the background and the odd boomfa from Marshall and that will show how Owesome each of them are.

And the first 3 players to ruck stat is only bought out on special occasions, when some poster is doubting the greatness of Reuben Thorne.

MajorRage

Marvel stadium?

Is that a joke?

Crucial

@ACT-Crusader said in Bledisloe 1:

@bayimports said in Bledisloe 1:

some hyperbolic shit on this thread and it is only about 2 players in the same team lol. Personally I think they offer different strengths, SF did put in some big games recently but I still think Akira has a higher ceiling. Even the stats shared for me only show part of the story. Carries, tackles, missed tackles, metres gained cover part of it, anyone with access to find stats like number of cleanouts, successful cleanouts v penalties conceded?, someone used to track (1st 3 players to a ruck) etc, Im sure some platform would have them. Probably would put a few of the other forwards to shame knowing those numbers, but might help shape opinions more objectively including my own..

Bro, forget the stats. All we need are a few short well edited video clips of highlights, maybe with a bit of rap/hip-hop music playing in the background and the odd boomfa from Marshall and that will show how Owesome each of them are.

And the first 3 players to ruck stat is only bought out on special occasions, when some poster is doubting the greatness of Reuben Thorne.

Thorne would get to rucks quickly but I think his eyesight was bad because once there he would stop and try to focus.

MN5

@ACT-Crusader said in Bledisloe 1:

@bayimports said in Bledisloe 1:

some hyperbolic shit on this thread and it is only about 2 players in the same team lol. Personally I think they offer different strengths, SF did put in some big games recently but I still think Akira has a higher ceiling. Even the stats shared for me only show part of the story. Carries, tackles, missed tackles, metres gained cover part of it, anyone with access to find stats like number of cleanouts, successful cleanouts v penalties conceded?, someone used to track (1st 3 players to a ruck) etc, Im sure some platform would have them. Probably would put a few of the other forwards to shame knowing those numbers, but might help shape opinions more objectively including my own..

Bro, forget the stats. All we need are a few short well edited video clips of highlights, maybe with a bit of rap/hip-hop music playing in the background and the odd boomfa from Marshall and that will show how Owesome each of them are.

And the first 3 players to ruck stat is only bought out on special occasions, when some poster is doubting the greatness of Reuben Thorne.

White players usually have a bit of thrash metal to emphasise how powerful and dynamic they are. So racist.

Chris B.

@pakman said in Bledisloe 1:

For me Cane and Frizell are heavy duty flankers, e.g. hit rucks well. They're never going to compete in the loose with Ardie, Akira and Hos, who are all much faster. But a LF trio needs balance, and with two heavy duty types a flier works well, at least in first 50.
Akira and Ardie are a bit samey and not great together against teams such as Boks and Pumas.
I'm fine with the selection, and main query is what happens at 50 when Cane off, and Paps and Akira on. Does Scooter go to lock and give Big Sam a rest? Or does Akira pick up where Hos left off?
I imagine that decision will be driven by how well the Wobbly five are going.

That's pretty much what I'm expecting, though I was thinking Scott to shift in and Retallick to the bench.

booboo

@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 1:

Marvel stadium?

Is that a joke?

No it's a sponsor

NTA

@pakman said in Bledisloe 1:

@NTA said in Bledisloe 1:

Must say, I'm really enjoying the passion and verve of this thread in terms of Player A vs Player B etc.

It won't make a lick of difference to the result - ABs by 25.

If the ABs win by 24 you'll be celebrating.

Little victories

ACT Crusader

@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 1:

Marvel stadium?

Is that a joke?

In 20 years it’s had 4 different names / sponsors.

Colonial Stadium, Telstra Dome, Etihad Stadium and now Marvel Stadium.

I’ve always just referred to it as Docklands Stadium because of where it is.

No Quarter

Amazing to see how high people are rating Frizell after a couple of OKish performances, despite starting in our first ever loss to a terrible Argentinian team at home. I guess there's some strong dislike/bias against Akira that is playing into that.

kiwiinmelb

@ACT-Crusader said in Bledisloe 1:

@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 1:

Marvel stadium?

Is that a joke?

In 20 years it’s had 4 different names / sponsors.

Colonial Stadium, Telstra Dome, Etihad Stadium and now Marvel Stadium.

I’ve always just referred to it as Docklands Stadium because of where it is.

I have trouble keeping up and find myself still calling it Etihad , I’ll probably be calling it Marvell when it’s something else

Mattasaurus

@No-Quarter said in Bledisloe 1:

Amazing to see how high people are rating Frizell after a couple of OKish performances, despite starting in our first ever loss to a terrible Argentinian team at home. I guess there's some strong dislike/bias against Akira that is playing into that.

Exactly the same can be said the other way around too

Crucial

@No-Quarter said in Bledisloe 1:

Amazing to see how high people are rating Frizell after a couple of OKish performances, despite starting in our first ever loss to a terrible Argentinian team at home. I guess there's some strong dislike/bias against Akira that is playing into that.

I don't see anyone rating SF highly at all, except the selectors.
The discussions are about why he/SB are the starting 6s instead of Akira and why Akira doesn't fit the desired gameplan for the starting role or fits the finishing role better.

There are no slurs on Akira's abilities or praising of Frizell. The Akira bias is coming from his fans.

No Quarter

@Mattasaurus said in Bledisloe 1:

@No-Quarter said in Bledisloe 1:

Amazing to see how high people are rating Frizell after a couple of OKish performances, despite starting in our first ever loss to a terrible Argentinian team at home. I guess there's some strong dislike/bias against Akira that is playing into that.

Exactly the same can be said the other way around too

You think Akira has only ever produced a couple of OKish performances in black? That bias is stronger than I realised!

KiwiMurph

Just a reminder there's a French ref tonight so expect some random calls.

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)

Assistant referees: Andrew Brace (Ireland), Pierre Brousset (France)

TMO: Ben Whitehouse (Wales)

Steve

@No-Quarter

Frizell is getting overly praised for functional "non shitting the bed" performances.

The train has over shot the station however.

He was solid but nothing to scare any of the NH teams. Backrowers of his ilk are 10 a penny up there these days.

I will give him credit for sticking up for Nugget after Wiese hit him after the whistle.

Too many of our boys have been getting towelled up on and off the ball this year.

Even when Cane was getting rinsed by O'Mahoney, someone should have been grabbing collars.

Same with Beaudy getting upended. Allblacks watched as one of their star men was sent head first into the turf and there wasn't a neck grabbed or a push dealt out.

Beta Mentality.

The Silver Fern

Bledisloe 1