All Blacks v Pumas 1
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
I woke this morning fully expecting to see that Cane had fallen on his sword. Not because I buy into the claims that he isn't a good enough player but because he is more likely than Foster to take it on himself to give things the showing of consequence that some of the team need to see.
The fact that players aren't thinking out in the battle and not following instructions from him is enough to say that for the good of the team he is going to pass the baton. Any players that disagree with that decision can look at themselves in the mirror for the reasons.This iteration of the All Blacks and the NZRU aren’t self-aware enough to resign, and that’s actually sad. The problem with being consistently excellent is that it looks a lot like self-satisfaction or arrogance, and there were a lot of commentators around the world waiting for a chance to put the boot in. Now their chance is here and they’re not even bothering to hide their delight. They’re mocking the team that for years was the benchmark, and we deserve it.
We’re devoid of innovation. We used to pride ourselves that ours were the fittest players who would run the opposition off their feet, but now apparently we have to sub off 25 year old front row players in case they break down.
We’re determined that our players are so special that we can play them out of position and expect them to outshine opposition counterparts who’ve specialised in those positions for years.
Unfortunately I think we’ve lost our way. We’re unbeatable. But only if others play our game, which is the “proper” way. Like Fezzik when the Dread Pirate Roberts comes along we’re confused that other teams won’t hold still and let us kill them.
The guys in charge will never change that. No amount of self-reflection is going to help unless they are willing to put on the table that maybe the solution doesn’t include themselves. Wayne Smith was able to do that, but these guys aren’t Wayne Smith.
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@JC said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
I woke this morning fully expecting to see that Cane had fallen on his sword. Not because I buy into the claims that he isn't a good enough player but because he is more likely than Foster to take it on himself to give things the showing of consequence that some of the team need to see.
The fact that players aren't thinking out in the battle and not following instructions from him is enough to say that for the good of the team he is going to pass the baton. Any players that disagree with that decision can look at themselves in the mirror for the reasons.This iteration of the All Blacks and the NZRU aren’t self-aware enough to resign, and that’s actually sad. The problem with being consistently excellent is that it looks a lot like self-satisfaction or arrogance, and there were a lot of commentators around the world waiting for a chance to put the boot in. Now their chance is here and they’re not even bothering to hide their delight. They’re mocking the team that for years was the benchmark, and we deserve it.
We’re devoid of innovation. We used to pride ourselves that ours were the fittest players who would run the opposition off their feet, but now apparently we have to sub off 25 year old front row players in case they break down.
We’re determined that our players are so special that we can play them out of position and expect them to outshine opposition counterparts who’ve specialised in those positions for years.
Unfortunately I think we’ve lost our way. We’re unbeatable. But only if others play our game, which is the “proper” way. Like Fezzik when the Dread Pirate Roberts comes along we’re confused that other teams won’t hold still and let us kill them.
The guys in charge will never change that. No amount of self-reflection is going to help unless they are willing to put on the table that maybe the solution doesn’t include themselves. Wayne Smith was able to do that, but these guys aren’t Wayne Smith.
I think this is the first time I’ve ever seen the Princess Bride used in a conversation about Rugby.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Steve said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Sam Cane gets by from being a nice guy from the middle of nowhere. He is an absolutely terrible rugby player. He should get the fuck out of the All Blacks.
I really like him. I think it was circa 2016 he put on the most dominant tackling display I've ever seen against Wales in Cardiff. It was frightening.
But those days are long gone and he is yesterdays man.
He should have been picked for the RWC semi final but Hansen Guardiola'd himself by trying something mental in a knockout game.
The talk about succession planning is a farce when Hansens assistant gets the head coach role and then gives the same bloke that was dropped for the semi the captains armband.
I remember at the time thinking this is a weird decision,
Just named the guy captain that you lot couldn’t fit into the team for the most important game in 4 years
Apparently the team are rebuilding. Have been since 2019, despite only a couple of retirements after the cup (read, sbw, Ben Smith). How the fuck is a team, with the same coaching ticket and virtually the same players rebuilding? And how the fuck can it take two and a half years?
Totally agree, Just another bullshit excuse.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@JC said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
I woke this morning fully expecting to see that Cane had fallen on his sword. Not because I buy into the claims that he isn't a good enough player but because he is more likely than Foster to take it on himself to give things the showing of consequence that some of the team need to see.
The fact that players aren't thinking out in the battle and not following instructions from him is enough to say that for the good of the team he is going to pass the baton. Any players that disagree with that decision can look at themselves in the mirror for the reasons.This iteration of the All Blacks and the NZRU aren’t self-aware enough to resign, and that’s actually sad. The problem with being consistently excellent is that it looks a lot like self-satisfaction or arrogance, and there were a lot of commentators around the world waiting for a chance to put the boot in. Now their chance is here and they’re not even bothering to hide their delight. They’re mocking the team that for years was the benchmark, and we deserve it.
We’re devoid of innovation. We used to pride ourselves that ours were the fittest players who would run the opposition off their feet, but now apparently we have to sub off 25 year old front row players in case they break down.
We’re determined that our players are so special that we can play them out of position and expect them to outshine opposition counterparts who’ve specialised in those positions for years.
Unfortunately I think we’ve lost our way. We’re unbeatable. But only if others play our game, which is the “proper” way. Like Fezzik when the Dread Pirate Roberts comes along we’re confused that other teams won’t hold still and let us kill them.
The guys in charge will never change that. No amount of self-reflection is going to help unless they are willing to put on the table that maybe the solution doesn’t include themselves. Wayne Smith was able to do that, but these guys aren’t Wayne Smith.
I think this is the first time I’ve ever seen the Princess Bride used in a conversation about Rugby.
Haha, yeah, sorry. I should maybe just have said we’ve become flat track bullies.
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One thing that struck me is that the ABs game plan was that they were still playing the Boks. please correct me if I’m wrong but in 3 tests since the loss in 2020 haven’t the ABs mercilessly kicked against the Pumas smaller back 3?
And another thing: Get D-Mac back in a black jersey straight away. These selection criteria are beyond stupid.
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@game_film said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
One thing that struck me is that the ABs game plan was that they were still playing the Boks. please correct me if I’m wrong but in 3 tests since the loss in 2020 haven’t the ABs mercilessly kicked against the Pumas smaller back 3?
And another thing: Get D-Mac back in a black jersey straight away. These selection criteria are beyond stupid.
He's available. Only needed the one NPC game.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@NTA said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Pepe said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Well done Argies.
ABs very poor.
Most random reffing performance I have seen for some time, well since that Wales v Boks test.
He's simply not up to standard but he wasn't the reason you lost.
Was a factor.
Take him out and we win.
Not convinced
Ref wasn't committing the penalties and throwing the ball in shit
Ref invented penalties, for one side and ignored the other side.
It created the scoreboard pressure. And subsequent panic.
Sure we did stupid shit too.
But change that factor and put a proper ref in charge and that result changes.
That's down to the captain, players and coaches not adapting to the ref
Everyone knew he's useless before kick off
NZ did not play the ref, Argentina did
End of
So you're saying the referee's inadequacies affected the result?
I agree entirely
The team's inadequacies affected the result much more
Take one factor out and the result changes
Not giving away so many penalties to allow the Pumas to stay in touch?
Yes.
That is another different factor.
But then ask yourself were all those penalties legit, or were they the result of an incompetent referee?
I thought a couple were a bit rough on the ABs. But then, your hooker detatched from the maul for his try, so....
I like that the ref was pretty strict on latching player going to deck - and fairly consistent.
Again... change that factor ...
Or be good enough that a couple of decisions aren't in frame.
I wondered about this at the time. On the replay it looks like ST manages to keep holding on to the player in front despite his shoulders losing contact. I thought as long as physical contact remained they are still bound?
Technically speaking: bound to the shoulder. In practice it is a little looser than that, but that one was barely hand grip on the shorts
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@NTA said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Technically speaking: bound to the shoulder. In practice it is a little looser than that, but that one was barely hand grip on the shorts
I said so to my wife when it happened.
We scored two tries. One from a lineout drive, and one from the opposition turning over possession while lined up for attack. While we made yards early on, we never generated any decent breaks. We have turned into a bad South African team.
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@African-Monkey 🙄
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@Machpants said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Steve said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Sam Cane gets by from being a nice guy from the middle of nowhere. He is an absolutely terrible rugby player. He should get the fuck out of the All Blacks.
I really like him. I think it was circa 2016 he put on the most dominant tackling display I've ever seen against Wales in Cardiff. It was frightening.
But those days are long gone and he is yesterdays man.
He should have been picked for the RWC semi final but Hansen Guardiola'd himself by trying something mental in a knockout game.
The talk about succession planning is a farce when Hansens assistant gets the head coach role and then gives the same bloke that was dropped for the semi the captains armband.
I remember at the time thinking this is a weird decision,
Just named the guy captain that you lot couldn’t fit into the team for the most important game in 4 years
Apparently the team are rebuilding. Have been since 2019, despite only a couple of retirements after the cup (read, sbw, Ben Smith). How the fuck is a team, with the same coaching ticket and virtually the same players rebuilding? And how the fuck can it take two and a half years?
I guess you have to complete the demolition before you can start the rebuild
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@broughie said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Victor-Meldrew I don't know about over the top. There were some good things that appeared to be happening. Although maybe the Boks really are not that good which made our second test result look even better. The Boks looked horrible yesterday. I think the first half for us was good and we stuck to a plan. This went out the window in the second half for some reason.
We beat the Boks in the second test largely due to fitness. They used 4 subs in the first half, effectively ruining their "bomb squad" approach and the forced back line sub early in the game messed up their defensive structure giving the All Blacks attack more impact. And with that combination, South Africa ran out of gas in the second after running us VERY close.
From a South African perspective, giving Duane and Dweba game time backfired badly as they contributed very little but that was down to giving them game time and managing Marx game time for the larger 2022 campaign.
I'm not suggesting SA threw the game to keep Foster safe, but they were heavily impacted by Kriels injury and two individuals performance.
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Yeah strange game , at halftime while I didn’t think we were great , I thought we were tracking ok ,
Could see new things I thought were the new coaches at work , and thought that was a bit satisfying
Then fucked if I know what happened second half , we went back to the shambles that more resembled the season so far .
Yeah - unfortunately for Fozzie he already used the "signs of improvement" line after Boks 1, when I didn't think there were.
Last night I thought we were looking significantly better in the first half and at 15-3 it was looking like being the comfortable victory I was expecting. I don't think Fozzie would be well-advised to use "coach-killers" to describe the penalties around halftime, but that's what they were. And then conceding a soft try...
Really, with the possession, territory, scrum dominance, running metres we had - we should have been able to put that game away pretty comfortably. But the Pumas made us work hard to progress inside their 22, and once we had we repeatedly fucked it up - one way or another.
The Argies defended well, kicked from hand effectively, and Boufelli punished us like Don Clarke did the Lions many years ago - but they didn't offer much on attack and in the end, didn't need to.
Hard not to think that yet another trick missed, in Fozzie's reset, was not sacking Sammy C. along with Plumtree and Mooar. Ardie at 7 and Sotutu at 8 seem like they'd offer more.
I guess running out the Crusaders front row together "seemed like a good idea at the time", but it seemed very early and as many others have noted, we should have been getting more miles out of Sami and far fewer out of Codie.
One thing Fozzie is right about, though, is that we do need a fair bit of stability in a crisis. Seems like the Fern collectively has proposed dropping just about everyone. What's that Warriors line about a matter of faith?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
One thing Fozzie is right about, though, is that we do need a fair bit of stability in a crisis. Seems like the Fern collectively has proposed dropping just about everyone. What's that Warriors line about a matter of faith?
Well, for the first time in ages we were able to run out the same squad two games running. Didn't help. Should we keep doing it until it does?
Most Ferners don't want a lot of personnel changes. Like many, I want Reiko on the wing and Ardie at openside but not many actually dropped -- Cane and reserve hookers mostly. A few swaps of starters, Havili out and RTS and Tupea in.
Until the coaching set up realise that they have a major problem, and that it requires major fixes, we are screwed. So I think he is entirely wrong to want stability.
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@Steve said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Well, before the match I said Argentine were a good side playing well and I'd be happy with a good, solid win. One out of three would have been good...
The whole team started well and there were some good touches and progress (I liked the way we kept it simple to try and regain momentum) but as the game went on, the same old problems we've seen for the last 5-6 years came into the foreground - stupid mistakes by senior players, lack of patience and a creeping collective terror of minimal time left to win the game.
Without re-watching the game, it seemed to me that apart from the scrums and a maul or two, the forwards went backwards from last week. The breakdown work was ineffective and the discipline was poor. Taylor was truly awful though the lineout jumpers and captain deserve some of the blame as well, as the co-ordination was poor - particularly on the last AB lineout throw. The swapping of the front row was dumb or mis-timed, but the elephant in the room was how poor the replacements actually were at the breakdown. They are all Crusaders so used to working together so you have to question their preparation for the game.
Jordie made metres on attack but that was about it, Clarke and Jordan never really hit their straps and Reiko was a shadow of his Ellis Park self. Mo'unga was pretty awful at times and looked to have the yips with the boot. Havili was solid without being spectacular. The whole attack looked slow, one-dimensional and lacking in penetration. Yet no-one played badly - it was either a poor attack plan and/or poor analysis of Argentinian defence.
Buggered if I know what the problems are, but it's pretty dumb to blame it all on Foster. Last week it was all about Jason Ryan getting credit for the forwards improvement and this week they seem to have regressed. Ditto Joe Schmidt on attack and analysis. I do, however, question the effectiveness of the AB leadership group. Are they too powerful? Are they seeing the on-field issues as they occur and addressing them or do they get the collective yips?
My preferred solution after the Ireland fiasco was to sack Foster and replace him (either Schmidt or Robertson or ANO) and give the new bloke 8-9 games to demonstrate improvement and, if not, then a full scale review after the EOYT to see what the issues really are to fix what can be fixed before RWC2023. It seemed to me the best mix of possible progress and risk management. Sadly, the first part of that ship has sailed, but there's still the option for the second bit.
The clusterfuck of omnishambles
I had a two and fro with Bones in the Ellis park thread regarding RIeko. For all his good scramble last week it was arguable he was out of position for most of his tackles. HIs wheels got him out of trouble. He is not a centre. It's plain to see from my barstool. Clarke and Jordan are getting served up a load of slop.
Put Rieko on the left wing and leave him there to break Howletts record.
Look at these highlights and look at the Ioane we are utilising now.
Caleb doesn't have the toe to go 60 meters.
I agree he's no centre, but the guy claiming Sam Cane is the worst player in history and should drop himself told me off.
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@Chester-Draws Yeah - I'd agree with most of those changes - but, pairing RTS and Tupaea in the midfield is pretty experimental. We'd be a lot better off if we had ALB or Goodhue to play alongside one of them.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Chester-Draws Yeah - I'd agree with most of those changes - but, pairing RTS and Tupaea in the midfield is pretty experimental. We'd be a lot better off if we had ALB or Goodhue to play alongside one of them.
Agree RTS and Tupaea sounds scary.
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I wouldn't voluntarily play both either. But we don't have any other centres, if you take Reiko out.
It's not like the current set-up offers much, so provided they defend adequately they can't really be worse.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
I guess running out the Crusaders front row together "seemed like a good idea at the time", but it seemed very early and as many others have noted, we should have been getting more miles out of Sami and far fewer out of Codie.
There was a noticeable drop in the quality of our forwards general play after that substitution
Taylor should be nowhere near an AB squad right now
Towards the end of the game there was some awful decisions made by individuals though. That soft penalty Cane gave away. Maybe it was frustration, but it made winning the game much more difficult.
It probably should be his last act as captain but I'm not sure if Foster will make that changeFrizell's blatant maul penalty that resulted in a card was retarded. The chances of us scoring twice with 15 was already slim, with 14 the Test match was all but over.
