Springboks v All Blacks 2
-
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
It doesn't require all 23 be bad, just sufficient aren't good enough. And as to whether they played well in SR, one has to keep in mind that was simply us playing ourselves and the Aussies. Flattered to deceive.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?
That's broadly my point isn't it? We don't have the depth of 2007 and the experience of 2015. Both of those teams would towel the 2022 version the fuck up.
I'm coming around to the concept the malaise goes deeper than just the head coach.
-
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
It doesn't require all 23 be bad, just sufficient aren't good enough. And as to whether they played well in SR, one has to keep in mind that was simply us playing ourselves and the Aussies. Flattered to deceive.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?
That's broadly my point isn't it? We don't have the depth of 2007 and the experience of 2015. Both of those teams would towel the 2022 version the fuck up.
I'm coming around to the concept the malaise goes deeper than just the head coach.
So Foster is ok to remain? đ
-
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
It doesn't require all 23 be bad, just sufficient aren't good enough. And as to whether they played well in SR, one has to keep in mind that was simply us playing ourselves and the Aussies. Flattered to deceive.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?
That's broadly my point isn't it? We don't have the depth of 2007 and the experience of 2015. Both of those teams would towel the 2022 version the fuck up.
I'm coming around to the concept the malaise goes deeper than just the head coach.
So Foster is ok to remain? đ
No. He absolutely has to go. His record is unacceptable and I'm sick of him blithely accepting his destruction of a legacy over a century in the making.
-
The other problem with Foster is that he picks sides to save his skin rather than develop the team.
He doesn't have a long term vision so he picks teams entirely on the upcoming week - which ends up being so conservative that it's crippling.
He refuses to try Jordie at 12, Jordan at 15, Ardie at 7, Hoskins at 8 etc.
He refuses to cut loose the likes of Frizell, Ennor and Laulala.
He needed 12 months of evidence to drop Taylor for Samisoni.
With his job on the line this week he's not going to do anything bold.
-
@KiwiMurph said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
The other problem with Foster is that he picks sides to save his skin rather than develop the team.
He doesn't have a long term vision so he picks teams entirely on the upcoming week - which ends up being so conservative that it's crippling.
He refuses to try Jordie at 12, Jordan at 15, Ardie at 7, Hoskins at 8 etc.
He refuses to cut loose the likes of Frizell, Ennor and Laulala.
He needed 12 months of evidence to drop Taylor for Samisoni.
With his job on the line this week he's not going to do anything bold.
I think Foster has favourites. It clouds his judgement. I seem to recall ppl saying similar things when he was Chiefs coach.
You can say he is loyal, but loyalty only goes so far. His job is to coach a winning team. That requires ruthlessness when required.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby.
There's a bit of a difference between SR & Test rugby - which is why George Bridge isn't a Test winger.
OK so then who do you pick? If no one will make the step up...
The super final is the closest to test rugby we have.
-
@KiwiMurph He is not bold and hence he will go with what has brought him to the dance. Changing things would be an admission he got it all wrong anyway. And to be fair the ABâs wonât win because they are beaten dogs and they donât have the leadership anywhere to bring them out of the muck.
-
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby.
There's a bit of a difference between SR & Test rugby - which is why George Bridge isn't a Test winger.
OK so then who do you pick? If no one will make the step up...
The super final is the closest to test rugby we have.
Players that make few mistakes for a start. Less x-factor, more focus on basics and the ability to repeat them consistently.
-
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
It doesn't require all 23 be bad, just sufficient aren't good enough. And as to whether they played well in SR, one has to keep in mind that was simply us playing ourselves and the Aussies. Flattered to deceive.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?
That's broadly my point isn't it? We don't have the depth of 2007 and the experience of 2015. Both of those teams would towel the 2022 version the fuck up.
I'm coming around to the concept the malaise goes deeper than just the head coach.
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years. With shit Super sides they still managed to win two RWC. The rot started with Hansen at the end of 2016 and we've been regressing ever since. It can't be that in that all rugby players in NZ have gone to complete crap in that time.
-
@Joans-Town-Jones said in [Springboks v All Blacks 2]
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years.
agree - but they ask questions others don't force us to win against people playing a different style, and get to practice travelling and playing.
I really miss them and what they bring. They may not have won much, but they sure as shit asked questions of our teams.
-
@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in [Springboks v All Blacks 2]
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years.
agree - but they ask questions others don't force us to win against people playing a different style, and get to practice travelling and playing.
I really miss them and what they bring. They may not have won much, but they sure as shit asked questions of our teams.
fucking this!!
Every time the "oh they barely won the comp" bullshit comes out, that completely ignores the fact that playing the Bulls in teh republoc requires different tactics than playing the Highlanders (who play like every other NZ team, just worse).
-
@broughie said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@KiwiMurph He is not bold and hence he will go with what has brought him to the dance. Changing things would be an admission he got it all wrong anyway. And to be fair the ABâs wonât win because they are beaten dogs and they donât have the leadership anywhere to bring them out of the muck.
Not sure if this was part of your meaning but I'm really quite pissed that Cane has been dragged into this blame game.
His job as cap is to keep the players on plan with what they have been sent out to do. To stop heads dropping and keep focus. I thought that his leadership in a sinking ship has been stellar despite it affecting his ability to focus on his own game.
He's fronted and never thrown anyone under the bus. Was working extra hard talking to the team during the game and didn't let them off at the end without what looked like a fairly stern chat.
Not a job that anyone asks for or turns down.
Doesn't deserve the shit being flung his way and would probably do anything to make things better. -
@Stargazer said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@FakatavaAllBlack RTS didn't perform well in the SR matches that mattered most. Havili did. It's weird how people think RTS is the answer when he hasn't shown anything to suggest that. Give him a bit more time via the bench first. Tupaea shit the bed against Ireland in a bad way. Again, there's no reason to suggest he's better than Havili. I'm not saying Havili is great at 12 (although he was better than people are suggesting here), I'd rather see him back at fullback (if that's still an option), and I'd therefore be in favour of handing him the 23 jersey, but only if there's a better 12 and I don't think there is (or at least, we haven't seen it yet). It would be good if TUJ could stay injury free for a while so he could be considered, but he seems to be made of glass, which doesn't do his ABs chances any favours. He looks like a good prospect though.
I also think that Rieko was far worse than Havili in the midfield. He didn't perform too well in the Ireland Series either. His "luck" is that his competition for the 13 jersey - ALB and Goodhue - are both unavailable. Unfortunately, Ennor would be a worse option and Fainga'anuku is too green (like RTS). Some competition for that 13 jersey might provide the spark Rieko needs.
Before throwing out the baby with the bath water (discarding players like some are suggesting), I'd like to see what a new coach, preferable Razor, can achieve. After all, our depth isn't what it used to be.
Is my memory failing me or did RTS not go off injured at the beginning of the second half in the final? And I actually thought he was really good up until that point despite having no ball to work with, hence his selection for the ABs. I get there are posters on here that loathe Blues players but re-writing history doesn't do your credibility any good.
-
@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in [Springboks v All Blacks 2]
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years.
agree - but they ask questions others don't force us to win against people playing a different style, and get to practice travelling and playing.
I really miss them and what they bring. They may not have won much, but they sure as shit asked questions of our teams.
Did they really though? SA teams won 3 of the 24 seasons. And made a handful of finals.
I agree, we do miss them. But them not in the comp is not the answer to Foster's fuck ups.
-
@African-Monkey said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@No-Quarter I hate how inexperience gets used against players. I'd start RTS and Newell next week tbh, time to see what these guys are made of.
I doubt the coaches look at it like that unless the player is one of those specific project players that used to go on those EOYTs. The way I see it, if theyâre in the ABs, theyâre in and it could be their turn this weekend. Itâs more about what they are trying to do etc.
Wouldnât mind seeing Newell get a game. He looks to have a solid scrum foundation. All he needs is experience to get those lessons under his belt to build on.
-
@Joans-Town-Jones The SR results arenât really the issue. Not playing them in my view is definitely a contributing factor to how our players play today and their experience (or lack of it). If theyâre not having those experiences against different styles, players and patterns, watching video or running simulations in training only gets you so far. Thereâs no replacement for a body of real work on the paddock in game situations.
And if you stuffed up against the Bulls one week, you got a shot against the Sharks later in the season who had very similar style but slightly different patterns. Itâs about building muscle memory.
-
@No-Quarter he was subbed off (canât recall exactly but presumably injured) after 45.
Can only remember the Saders dominating until then, Iâm afraid.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby.
There's a bit of a difference between SR & Test rugby - which is why George Bridge isn't a Test winger.
Conversely, he had some major injuries (even though Foster kept picking him) and didn't even make the grade at Crusaders super level after that so not a good example. His first test or two was ok.
âI'd had reasonably smooth sailing up until last year, and then I had three different surgeries in the space of about eight months, and had my posterior cruciate ligament strain as well. It was a number of different injuries, and I had a few performances I wasn't happy with,â he said in February.I've been a big critic of him as an AB this year but to be fair to the guy he isn't a selector and the newly minted AB version of George Bridge isn't the 2022 version.
Plus there have been players who arguably played better at test level than at super. -
JB is probably out with a serious ankle injury.
I'd go Jordan at back, QT and RI in midfield, Clarke and Reece on the wings (moving Reece to 14 I guess). Richie to start, BB off the bench. -
@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in [Springboks v All Blacks 2]
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years.
agree - but they ask questions others don't force us to win against people playing a different style, and get to practice travelling and playing.
I really miss them and what they bring. They may not have won much, but they sure as shit asked questions of our teams.
100% we are worse of with out them.
