Springboks v All Blacks 2
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@sparky said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
Players are fine. Not world beaters but fine. It's the total lack of direction or purpose and an unwillingness to change and adapt from the Head Coach that are the key problems.
No, the player pool is very thin compared to the past and the current players aren't fine - they are making too many basic fuck-ups at critical moments which is killing us and they shoulder a fair bit of the blame.
Coles knocking-on with the try-line beckoning had nothing to do with direction, purpose, game plan or unwillingness to adapt by Foster. It was a bad mistake by an experienced player and we've seen it time and time again, whether it's BB's kicking or Taylor's lineout throwing.
Would you drop him? I would start ST and bring CT back on the bench for next test. One of Coles or Taylor to stay on in squad, but not both. Time to move on.
Doesn't matter who is picked on the day if the players make pretty basic mistakes time and time again and still get picked as they are the best in the player pool.
But yeah, I'd go for Sami starting as he's both the future and pretty much the form hooker. He and Bower seem to be the only rays of light at the moment.
ST, Bower, Scott Barrett, Savea. That's half a forward pack that aren't playing badly. Whitelock is playing ok and still operates the lineout well.
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@Tim said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
Jordie Barrett left the field in the second half with an ankle injury that Foster confirmed was "bad" and is therefore likely to rule him out of the second test.
So will Jordan get the 15 jersey, or will BB be moved back there?
Move Jordan to 15, play Reece at 14 and play CC at 11. Pretty good back 3, and all can catch at least!
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
It doesn't require all 23 be bad, just sufficient aren't good enough. And as to whether they played well in SR, one has to keep in mind that was simply us playing ourselves and the Aussies. Flattered to deceive.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?
That's broadly my point isn't it? We don't have the depth of 2007 and the experience of 2015. Both of those teams would towel the 2022 version the fuck up.
I'm coming around to the concept the malaise goes deeper than just the head coach.
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@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
It doesn't require all 23 be bad, just sufficient aren't good enough. And as to whether they played well in SR, one has to keep in mind that was simply us playing ourselves and the Aussies. Flattered to deceive.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?
That's broadly my point isn't it? We don't have the depth of 2007 and the experience of 2015. Both of those teams would towel the 2022 version the fuck up.
I'm coming around to the concept the malaise goes deeper than just the head coach.
So Foster is ok to remain? 😁
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@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
It doesn't require all 23 be bad, just sufficient aren't good enough. And as to whether they played well in SR, one has to keep in mind that was simply us playing ourselves and the Aussies. Flattered to deceive.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?
That's broadly my point isn't it? We don't have the depth of 2007 and the experience of 2015. Both of those teams would towel the 2022 version the fuck up.
I'm coming around to the concept the malaise goes deeper than just the head coach.
So Foster is ok to remain? 😁
No. He absolutely has to go. His record is unacceptable and I'm sick of him blithely accepting his destruction of a legacy over a century in the making.
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The other problem with Foster is that he picks sides to save his skin rather than develop the team.
He doesn't have a long term vision so he picks teams entirely on the upcoming week - which ends up being so conservative that it's crippling.
He refuses to try Jordie at 12, Jordan at 15, Ardie at 7, Hoskins at 8 etc.
He refuses to cut loose the likes of Frizell, Ennor and Laulala.
He needed 12 months of evidence to drop Taylor for Samisoni.
With his job on the line this week he's not going to do anything bold.
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@KiwiMurph said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
The other problem with Foster is that he picks sides to save his skin rather than develop the team.
He doesn't have a long term vision so he picks teams entirely on the upcoming week - which ends up being so conservative that it's crippling.
He refuses to try Jordie at 12, Jordan at 15, Ardie at 7, Hoskins at 8 etc.
He refuses to cut loose the likes of Frizell, Ennor and Laulala.
He needed 12 months of evidence to drop Taylor for Samisoni.
With his job on the line this week he's not going to do anything bold.
I think Foster has favourites. It clouds his judgement. I seem to recall ppl saying similar things when he was Chiefs coach.
You can say he is loyal, but loyalty only goes so far. His job is to coach a winning team. That requires ruthlessness when required.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby.
There's a bit of a difference between SR & Test rugby - which is why George Bridge isn't a Test winger.
OK so then who do you pick? If no one will make the step up...
The super final is the closest to test rugby we have.
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@KiwiMurph He is not bold and hence he will go with what has brought him to the dance. Changing things would be an admission he got it all wrong anyway. And to be fair the AB’s won’t win because they are beaten dogs and they don’t have the leadership anywhere to bring them out of the muck.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby.
There's a bit of a difference between SR & Test rugby - which is why George Bridge isn't a Test winger.
OK so then who do you pick? If no one will make the step up...
The super final is the closest to test rugby we have.
Players that make few mistakes for a start. Less x-factor, more focus on basics and the ability to repeat them consistently.
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@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
It doesn't require all 23 be bad, just sufficient aren't good enough. And as to whether they played well in SR, one has to keep in mind that was simply us playing ourselves and the Aussies. Flattered to deceive.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?
That's broadly my point isn't it? We don't have the depth of 2007 and the experience of 2015. Both of those teams would towel the 2022 version the fuck up.
I'm coming around to the concept the malaise goes deeper than just the head coach.
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years. With shit Super sides they still managed to win two RWC. The rot started with Hansen at the end of 2016 and we've been regressing ever since. It can't be that in that all rugby players in NZ have gone to complete crap in that time.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in [Springboks v All Blacks 2]
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years.
agree - but they ask questions others don't force us to win against people playing a different style, and get to practice travelling and playing.
I really miss them and what they bring. They may not have won much, but they sure as shit asked questions of our teams.
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@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in [Springboks v All Blacks 2]
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years.
agree - but they ask questions others don't force us to win against people playing a different style, and get to practice travelling and playing.
I really miss them and what they bring. They may not have won much, but they sure as shit asked questions of our teams.
fucking this!!
Every time the "oh they barely won the comp" bullshit comes out, that completely ignores the fact that playing the Bulls in teh republoc requires different tactics than playing the Highlanders (who play like every other NZ team, just worse).
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@broughie said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@KiwiMurph He is not bold and hence he will go with what has brought him to the dance. Changing things would be an admission he got it all wrong anyway. And to be fair the AB’s won’t win because they are beaten dogs and they don’t have the leadership anywhere to bring them out of the muck.
Not sure if this was part of your meaning but I'm really quite pissed that Cane has been dragged into this blame game.
His job as cap is to keep the players on plan with what they have been sent out to do. To stop heads dropping and keep focus. I thought that his leadership in a sinking ship has been stellar despite it affecting his ability to focus on his own game.
He's fronted and never thrown anyone under the bus. Was working extra hard talking to the team during the game and didn't let them off at the end without what looked like a fairly stern chat.
Not a job that anyone asks for or turns down.
Doesn't deserve the shit being flung his way and would probably do anything to make things better. -
@Stargazer said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@FakatavaAllBlack RTS didn't perform well in the SR matches that mattered most. Havili did. It's weird how people think RTS is the answer when he hasn't shown anything to suggest that. Give him a bit more time via the bench first. Tupaea shit the bed against Ireland in a bad way. Again, there's no reason to suggest he's better than Havili. I'm not saying Havili is great at 12 (although he was better than people are suggesting here), I'd rather see him back at fullback (if that's still an option), and I'd therefore be in favour of handing him the 23 jersey, but only if there's a better 12 and I don't think there is (or at least, we haven't seen it yet). It would be good if TUJ could stay injury free for a while so he could be considered, but he seems to be made of glass, which doesn't do his ABs chances any favours. He looks like a good prospect though.
I also think that Rieko was far worse than Havili in the midfield. He didn't perform too well in the Ireland Series either. His "luck" is that his competition for the 13 jersey - ALB and Goodhue - are both unavailable. Unfortunately, Ennor would be a worse option and Fainga'anuku is too green (like RTS). Some competition for that 13 jersey might provide the spark Rieko needs.
Before throwing out the baby with the bath water (discarding players like some are suggesting), I'd like to see what a new coach, preferable Razor, can achieve. After all, our depth isn't what it used to be.
Is my memory failing me or did RTS not go off injured at the beginning of the second half in the final? And I actually thought he was really good up until that point despite having no ball to work with, hence his selection for the ABs. I get there are posters on here that loathe Blues players but re-writing history doesn't do your credibility any good.
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@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in [Springboks v All Blacks 2]
NZ Super teams have won how many of the Super titles with SA involved. They were largely shit save for the Bulls for a couple of years.
agree - but they ask questions others don't force us to win against people playing a different style, and get to practice travelling and playing.
I really miss them and what they bring. They may not have won much, but they sure as shit asked questions of our teams.
Did they really though? SA teams won 3 of the 24 seasons. And made a handful of finals.
I agree, we do miss them. But them not in the comp is not the answer to Foster's fuck ups.
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@African-Monkey said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@No-Quarter I hate how inexperience gets used against players. I'd start RTS and Newell next week tbh, time to see what these guys are made of.
I doubt the coaches look at it like that unless the player is one of those specific project players that used to go on those EOYTs. The way I see it, if they’re in the ABs, they’re in and it could be their turn this weekend. It’s more about what they are trying to do etc.
Wouldn’t mind seeing Newell get a game. He looks to have a solid scrum foundation. All he needs is experience to get those lessons under his belt to build on.
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@Joans-Town-Jones The SR results aren’t really the issue. Not playing them in my view is definitely a contributing factor to how our players play today and their experience (or lack of it). If they’re not having those experiences against different styles, players and patterns, watching video or running simulations in training only gets you so far. There’s no replacement for a body of real work on the paddock in game situations.
And if you stuffed up against the Bulls one week, you got a shot against the Sharks later in the season who had very similar style but slightly different patterns. It’s about building muscle memory.
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@No-Quarter he was subbed off (can’t recall exactly but presumably injured) after 45.
Can only remember the Saders dominating until then, I’m afraid.
