Springboks v All Blacks 2
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Fine detail and organisation are going to get us out of this. There is hope. We are not as poor as our recent results suggest.
I am looking forward to a remarkable return of form culminating with SW lifting the Webb Ellis in Paris. -
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
This team, to my mind, is full of decent players who are less than the sum of it's parts.
I'm starting to believe the opposite. That we've a squad of players either not in form or exposed to Test rugby too early. Simply too many gaps in skills; other nations are finding and developing players while our famous depth is nowhere to be seen.
Predictability in attack shape just compounds the problem so now we don't know who is what.
How can they not be in form? Most of the squad played in a SR Final. They played good rugby. They step into the ABs and they turn to shit. Is that because they're out of form or because the coaching strategy is not working? 23 players can't be bad.
Who are the experienced players you propose to pick outside of the ones that are there?I don't think it's depth. There's something fundamentally wrong in the coaching set up.
For all the hype, Gus gifted the Boks a couple of scrum penalties. Our lineouts functioned. We have players but they get into the AB environment and they suck.
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Honest question, how do you feel about the frontrow, backrow, midfield and most of the bench that you have right now? Im not saying that they are bad players per se, but from the outside there seems to be a lot of placeholder selections until the long term guy pops up.
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@SidBarret Rieko is a world-class wing, Jordan was the best fullback in the national competition, the top 10 gets 10-20 minutes off the bench, Ardie is a great 7, Cane was captain of a team that wasn't in the top 2.. see where I am going with this?
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
In test 2 I'd really like us playing on our strengths and their weaknesses. Ever since Hansen this "we worry about our team" schtick really gets me. The opponents work out and exploit our weaknesses and make us play their style (esp Ireland, SA). Why do we let them do this? And why can't we play the refs like they do? Am guesstimating but I expect the penalty ratio is getting worse and worse.
Ireland for every tackle, breakdown and everything in between were bitching and moaning at the ref. Cane is too passive and needs to voice up. There were so many questionable calls by Gus (whether right or wrong) but Cane needs to make himself heard.
Yup. Ref gets a free pass on every fucking decision without even being asked one question, he's hardly gonna second guess himself. What Cane let them get away with at the breakdown and in the air was a travesty.
Although if we're not even going to bother being within 20m of contesting a kick, we're not really positioning ourselves to complain.
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@nostrildamus yeah i get it, but that leaves you to find a different 13 and 8 to start, while still finding solutions for 12 and 6.
My point is that it is clear that their are issues with the coaching (and I would argue it dates back about at least 2017), but it isnt that obvious that just getting any other coach will solve those.
But I've seen good New Zealand coaches solve these issues before. It is hard to remember looking back nobody saw Nonu becoming Nonu when he started at 12 and Brad Thorn was an unconventional solution to the locking issues you had back then. From what i am seeing you guys are not a competent coach away from being good, youd need pretty fucken good one.
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@SidBarret Havili for example has been placeholder 12 the past two seasons , time to move on, Roger has been training with the team for two months so start him Saturday, ( Thomas Umaga Jensen is a long term answer in my eyes) need to see Fletcher Newell in the 23 this week, Sotutu at 8 , Ardie 7, Ranga 9. It's a shame Todd Blackadder's son is injured he looked like a promising 6😔
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@FakatavaAllBlack
I really dont mean to put the boot in, but that is like third of the team. In the 20 odd years that i have been following the All Blacks I can't remember a time when there were so many holes to fill all at the same time.
As Springboks supporter ive seen us many times compounding one disaster with another while All Blacks were the model of consistently building a better side. Theyd deal with issues as they arise. On the rare occasion that they werent the best team in the world they were always one or two tweaks away from getting there.
This is the first time when i have seen all Blacks have multiple issues to resolve all at the same time.
I don't think foster is a good coach, but next man in that position will have very tough job.
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@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@nostrildamus yeah i get it, but that leaves you to find a different 13 and 8 to start, while still finding solutions for 12 and 6.
My point is that it is clear that their are issues with the coaching (and I would argue it dates back about at least 2017), but it isnt that obvious that just getting any other coach will solve those.
But I've seen good New Zealand coaches solve these issues before. It is hard to remember looking back nobody saw Nonu becoming Nonu when he started at 12 and Brad Thorn was an unconventional solution to the locking issues you had back then. From what i am seeing you guys are not a competent coach away from being good, youd need pretty fucken good one.
Hard to disagree - (although a few did support Nonu he wasn't the consistent article back then) but yeah we need a really good coach
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@FakatavaAllBlack RTS didn't perform well in the SR matches that mattered most. Havili did. It's weird how people think RTS is the answer when he hasn't shown anything to suggest that. Give him a bit more time via the bench first. Tupaea shit the bed against Ireland in a bad way. Again, there's no reason to suggest he's better than Havili. I'm not saying Havili is great at 12 (although he was better than people are suggesting here), I'd rather see him back at fullback (if that's still an option), and I'd therefore be in favour of handing him the 23 jersey, but only if there's a better 12 and I don't think there is (or at least, we haven't seen it yet). It would be good if TUJ could stay injury free for a while so he could be considered, but he seems to be made of glass, which doesn't do his ABs chances any favours. He looks like a good prospect though.
I also think that Rieko was far worse than Havili in the midfield. He didn't perform too well in the Ireland Series either. His "luck" is that his competition for the 13 jersey - ALB and Goodhue - are both unavailable. Unfortunately, Ennor would be a worse option and Fainga'anuku is too green (like RTS). Some competition for that 13 jersey might provide the spark Rieko needs.
Before throwing out the baby with the bath water (discarding players like some are suggesting), I'd like to see what a new coach, preferable Razor, can achieve. After all, our depth isn't what it used to be.
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@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@FakatavaAllBlack
I really dont mean to put the boot in, but that is like third of the team. In the 20 odd years that i have been following the All Blacks I can't remember a time when there were so many holes to fill all at the same time.
As Springboks supporter ive seen us many times compounding one disaster with another while All Blacks were the model of consistently building a better side. Theyd deal with issues as they arise. On the rare occasion that they werent the best team in the world they were always one or two tweaks away from getting there.
This is the first time when i have seen all Blacks have multiple issues to resolve all at the same time.
I don't think foster is a good coach, but next man in that position will have very tough job.
Hi Sid. Personally, I don't think the personnel are the major problem. Sure, the players aren't as good as the 2015 team, but that isn't the main issue.
Whatever gameplan has been decided upon by Foster, it either hasn't been communicated effectively, or, it isn't the right plan for the test arena. Time moves on. The ABs are behind the curve in terms of where test rugby has moved onto.
For example, the ABs used to use their fitness and dynamism to wear teams down and blast them away in the last 20 mins. That just doesn't happen anymore. The game is too stop/start and the fitness of other teams has caught up, so any advantage is minimal. Add into that the drop in basic skill execution by the ABs when under pressure, and you have a problem.
Foster won the coaching ticket on the back of saying that he would evolve the team from where it had stagnated under Hansen, and yet, there has been no real evolution. Now the ABs are faced with needing a revolution as their play has become stale.
Many questions were asked of the Boks when they lost 57-0 in 2017. The players that went to the RWC were available (bar a couple that came through late on), but the gameplan the players were being asked to play didn't suit them. They played like they didn't know or trust each other. Rassie simplified things down and created an environment that everyone bought into.
Foster may be a decent hands on coach, but he has presided over the development of a poor culture in a team that used to pride itself on having the highest of standards. It doesn't anymore, and it shows. The players need some leadership to be shown to them, much like what Henry had to do in 2004. Is Foster capable of that? I don't think it is in his nature, so the answer is no.
So what is left is the decision to bring in an outsider, not tainted by being part of the current regime, to sweep the floors out and start again.
The RWC 2023 is gone for NZ. They might fluke it, but the plan has to be long term now. Each test needs to be treated as if it is the last and the high standards and high performance culture needs to be reinstalled.
Until that happens, SS All Black will keep on listing and take further damage.
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@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@FakatavaAllBlack
I really dont mean to put the boot in, but that is like third of the team. In the 20 odd years that i have been following the All Blacks I can't remember a time when there were so many holes to fill all at the same time.
As Springboks supporter ive seen us many times compounding one disaster with another while All Blacks were the model of consistently building a better side. Theyd deal with issues as they arise. On the rare occasion that they werent the best team in the world they were always one or two tweaks away from getting there.
This is the first time when i have seen all Blacks have multiple issues to resolve all at the same time.
I don't think foster is a good coach, but next man in that position will have very tough job.
Hi Sid. Personally, I don't think the personnel are the major problem. Sure, the players aren't as good as the 2015 team, but that isn't the main issue.
Whatever gameplan has been decided upon by Foster, it either hasn't been communicated effectively, or, it isn't the right plan for the test arena. Time moves on. The ABs are behind the curve in terms of where test rugby has moved onto.
For example, the ABs used to use their fitness and dynamism to wear teams down and blast them away in the last 20 mins. That just doesn't happen anymore. The game is too stop/start and the fitness of other teams has caught up, so any advantage is minimal. Add into that the drop in basic skill execution by the ABs when under pressure, and you have a problem.
Foster won the coaching ticket on the back of saying that he would evolve the team from where it had stagnated under Hansen, and yet, there has been no real evolution. Now the ABs are faced with needing a revolution as their play has become stale.
Many questions were asked of the Boks when they lost 57-0 in 2017. The players that went to the RWC were available (bar a couple that came through late on), but the gameplan the players were being asked to play didn't suit them. They played like they didn't know or trust each other. Rassie simplified things down and created an environment that everyone bought into.
Foster may be a decent hands on coach, but he has presided over the development of a poor culture in a team that used to pride itself on having the highest of standards. It doesn't anymore, and it shows. The players need some leadership to be shown to them, much like what Henry had to do in 2004. Is Foster capable of that? I don't think it is in his nature, so the answer is no.
So what is left is the decision to bring in an outsider, not tainted by being part of the current regime, to sweep the floors out and start again.
The RWC 2023 is gone for NZ. They might fluke it, but the plan has to be long term now. Each test needs to be treated as if it is the last and the high standards and high performance culture needs to be reinstalled.
Until that happens, SS All Black will keep on listing and take further damage.
Great post, totally agree.
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@MiketheSnow said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
The RWC 2023 is gone for NZ. They might fluke it, but the plan has to be long term now. Each test needs to be treated as if it is the last and the high standards and high performance culture needs to be reinstalled.
What complete nonsense
It is about mindset Mike. Stop planning and developing for a world cup. Get the culture right and NZ have a chance. No culture, no chance.
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@SidBarret I'm actually encouraged after the scrum and lineouts performance. It wasn't until DC came on that we fluffed one and pinched a couple of theirs. The scrum was 50/50. Sure Angus copped some penalties but they were more technical rather than being pushed over. I believe we have the players. They don't go from SR finals to complete shit because they're bad. The coaching for whatever reason isn't working. The same blokes under Razor are winning championships.
I want to see AI at 6 again. I would like to see HS at 8 and AS at 7. We know AS is world class so FC needs to start and he needs to run that fucking ball from the base. We shovel it from side to side right into the face of a rush D. Hell, that Aussie 9, not White but the kid with the mullet carved us to pieces with his running. I'd like to see more punch in the midfield so JB at 12 and twinkle toes at 13. CC at 11 and SR 14 with WJ at 15. It's time RM gets a decent run at 10.
If our players are as bad as we say they are we'd be getting flogged by 30 points. We aren't. As bad as we are as a team, we're still in the fight on the scoreboard. Let's remember, as shit as we were, SA's tries came from a dropped up and under and a shit pass and catch. With all that "domination" they need the bounce of the ball to go their way. I just don't see how Foster can get the team out. He's had 3 years to show improvement and an upward trend. We can only go on his results and they stink. I'd settle for a reemployment of the Canterblacks at this point to get some fluidity and confidence back. -
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@Stargazer said in Springboks v All Blacks 2:
@FakatavaAllBlack RTS didn't perform well in the SR matches that mattered most. Havili did. It's weird how people think RTS is the answer when he hasn't shown anything to suggest that. Give him a bit more time via the bench first. Tupaea shit the bed against Ireland in a bad way. Again, there's no reason to suggest he's better than Havili. I'm not saying Havili is great at 12 (although he was better than people are suggesting here), I'd rather see him back at fullback (if that's still an option), and I'd therefore be in favour of handing him the 23 jersey, but only if there's a better 12 and I don't think there is (or at least, we haven't seen it yet). It would be good if TUJ could stay injury free for a while so he could be considered, but he seems to be made of glass, which doesn't do his ABs chances any favours. He looks like a good prospect though.
I also think that Rieko was far worse than Havili in the midfield. He didn't perform too well in the Ireland Series either. His "luck" is that his competition for the 13 jersey - ALB and Goodhue - are both unavailable. Unfortunately, Ennor would be a worse option and Fainga'anuku is too green (like RTS). Some competition for that 13 jersey might provide the spark Rieko needs.
Before throwing out the baby with the bath water (discarding players like some are suggesting), I'd like to see what a new coach, preferable Razor, can achieve. After all, our depth isn't what it used to be.
Your best ever post. Don't suppose you're available for a coaching gig?
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@Stargazer RTS missed substantial time in SR and then come the big game against the Saders he wasn’t the only Blue who didn’t show up, largely down to the Saders controlling everything. Agreed that he didn’t set the house on fire but he did enough to warrant a look.
The issue with players like him and Hoskins is - as JK says often on the breakdown - xx games until the RWC, we need to find out what we’ve got.
Havili has been in and around the team since 2017 and is what he is. Guys like RTS and Laumape would at least offer something against the rush defence.
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@Stargazer I don't think anyone has said that RTS is the answer, its more the fact that its time to see what he's capable of, otherwise there's no point having him there, and we're on an awful run of results so there's nothing to lose now really, same with Newell and Perofeta.
There are guys in there who have shown time and time again that they're not the answer, so why not give these guys a go? Let's be honest, we're most likely gonna lose anyway with the same guys that get picked as much as I hate to say it.
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@sparky leadership. You have next to none. No one to put an arm round Jordan when he hoofs the ale house ball into the 15th row. No one to tell Gus to stop guessing at the scrum, let the packs find their level - even if it’s just to put some doubt in the cyclop’s head. No one showing fuggen hard man manna to match the boks’ intensity and lift the boys with a massive hit on Pollard or Hendrikse to let them know this is a test match not an armchair ride.
But worse, it feels like the ABs have no clue what they absolutely have to do in order to win the game. If they were trying to set up certain situations to capitalize on they utterly failed to do it on the pitch.
But it’s more likely they didn’t have any real idea what they wanted to create and we’re just hoping for the game to go their way.
Somebody needs to grab the reigns and take control. Do that and a lot of other problems will get solved.
