Springboks v All Blacks I
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@BartMan said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@BartMan yeah scrums are a concern, however the only positive I can see is there aren't a huge number of scrums in the game nowadays, lineouts are 3 or 4 times more likely, and up until the Irish series we had a decent lineout...
But like you say, a defensive scrum on our own line might be time to get another strong drink!
We were getting pinged far too often, just not good enough. Add 2 not releasing penalties and Angus almost becomes the Boer MoM!
Just takes 1 bad scrum to lose a test, we had 4 penalties against in the first half alone? Bowers knee to ground pedantic though, that was good work to keep scrum up after slipping. Shouldn't be penalised for that!
So of the props out there in the squad, who would you start at tighthead next week?
I imagine Owen Franks isn't getting a late call up 😁
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Owen Franks is not a stupid call. Hold up the scrum, maul defense, hit every ruck, support the ball runner, and then sub early when the game gets a little looser.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Owen Franks is not a stupid call. Hold up the scrum, maul defense, hit every ruck, support the ball runner, and then sub early when the game gets a little looser.
Didn't say it was. I think his selection has merit. But he isn't in SA, so he isn't an option. Which was more what I was alluding to.
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@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@His-Bobness said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
It's really not rocket science. New Zealand Rugby made a catastrophic error in appointing Foster. He may be a nice chap, but he is not an innovator and does not have the imagination to take the game forward. As countless others have pointed out, he's like a hack chef who inherited a five-star restaurant and never changed the menu.
Goddamn brilliant analogy.
I'll die in my ditch alone on this, but I can understand the initial Foster appointment because of the historic success. It's the reappointment last year that I was absolutely dirty on.
I strongly disagreed with the initial Foster choice, because he hadn't been the head coach of a successful side, and pretty clearly that ought to be a requirement. Also we had seen Rennie take over his long-term Chiefs team and basically fix it overnight. At that time it was still possible to think 'well, maybe those inside the camp have seen enough from him to know that he is actually some sort of genius despite the lack of qualification - but they better be fucking right'.
Turns out they weren't, which makes the whole thing just an astonishing hiring debacle from the NZRU. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Kruse said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
You almost think they'd do better if they said "Fuck it, let's just go out there and have some fun - we might not win, but at least we'd be enjoying ourselves a bit"
B.Barrett in particular - whenever he has a blinder, it looks like he's just having a bit of a laugh with his mates and a rugby ball.
I don't know in which direction the Cause-Effect relationship is... but I've thought for a while that yeah... "give some basic strategy, but don't overfill their stupid little rugby-player heads - then pat them on the arse and let them go out on the field and have some fun" might be a decent coaching approach for some (not necessarily all) players.We hear they are a pretty together bunch off the field, but there seems a lot of tension and stress in the team on the field which is translating to their play. I noted Ardie being given a talking to by the Ref for back-chat - can't remember the last time I say that with a snr AB.
It's like riding the Honda on a gravel road. If you concentrate on not falling off you tense up, you will.
Didn’t that happen in the context of the BB hit and I think Ardie was pointing out that it went unpunished earlier in the game. Don’t mind that in that situation given how reckless and dangerous it was.
We’ve been marched 10 in the past for back chat - Coles, TJP come to mind.
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@His-Bobness said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
New Zealand Rugby made a catastrophic error in appointing Foster. He may be a nice chap, but he is not an innovator and does not have the imagination to take the game forward. As countless others have pointed out, he's like a hack chef who inherited a five-star restaurant and never changed the menu. NZR need to get the cheque book out now and pay Foster out. It seems they almost certainly will at this point.. But that it was allowed to get this far is an indictment on the entire administration.
Nails it. Good health to you, HB!
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OK notes from the game. Fuck names I just picked numbers because I don't know who half these pricks are any more.
7th minute - black 5 a bit lucky not to get done for deliberate knockdown after looking up and slapping at the ball.
10:21 - can't believe green 14 wasn't done for taking out black 15. I suspect this will be a pattern based on subsequent comments here...
Subsequent scrum: going nowhere. Why not call use it? Black 1 was under pressure from the get go but everything was stationary
Cane has already missed Wiesser twice off the back of Green scrum.
17:40 green 2 gets the penalty at ruck - green 13 just managed to push black 1 off his line running into the ruck to clean out. Very AB-like in its cynicism.
Black 15 is getting outmuscled by green 14 - physically a lightweight.
24:56 black 10 counterattacks and makes a break - the amount of green bodies running interference lines or late contact here was great. Green 13 should have been done for a shoulder charge on black 13. Green 14 holding black 13 in the same movement off the ball.
26:46 black 3 overextending at scrum. Correct call
28:54 great turnover black 8
37:04 goodscrum by black - green 1 had his knees hit the deck on engage, then recovered but was in trouble from that point. Subbed shortly after
Jeez shocking inside pop to nobody from black 9. Been a few of thoseHalftime thoughts: ABs trying to play like they did a decade ago. Which worked except when people made tackles and refused to do stupid shit in their own half. Like the Boks have been doing since just before RWC2019.
Second half start more aggressive from black
41:44 shocking kick from black 14.
43:11 High kick into the 22 from green and no fewer than 8 black players are running towards it. Why? The lack of communication has black 7 taking out black 15 and losing the ball. Luckily they turn it over shortly after
Green starting to play some silly buggers with medical staff
nobody is shocked.
46:00 Great break from set piece. Then black 15 throws the triple cut out, runs black 11 out of space
47:12 black 10 went one handed at the ball. Why no penalty? That is literally the standard used against the Wallabies mere weeks ago...
48:40 this is the scrum @pakman wanted to look at.The picture the ref is seeing: black 18 goes down under pressure and his feet are goneskis. Yes both sides are probably a bit guilty, but green 17 has his sprigs in the turf, and black 18 has his sprigs in the air. Easy call.
52:50 another turnover from green 2. Black starting to get frustrated in the ref's face.
54:32 great kick from black 12 - first time he'd done basically anything except defend
55:15 ref calls against Black 20 for offside at subsequent lineout BUT green were also offside in their own ball. Should have told both to get back and let it breathe IMHO. Still, silly error when you're in their 22.
56:14 green told to use it. Another green player joins the ruck. More than 5 seconds elapse. Should have been a short arm against.
56:49 black 13 transfers pressure rather than going into touch. Silly.
61:17 black lineout 30m out picked off. Green 14 bangs it into touch under pressure - helluva nudge. Shame it was carried back into the 22.
62:20 black maul going nowhere. Black 9 forced to go into the ruck after nobody supports black 12. Black 16 knocks on a few metres out.
63:45 oh man - Black try to go quick on the lineout and not straight to the front player. Coaches are frustrated.The TV director is shitting me. Long shots for lineouts. Focusing on players rather than the action. Why do I need to see the backs fixing their hair while a lineout is starting? Do your fucking job.
Game enters a period of stagnation. Handling errors, forward passes. Scrums. Eesh.
68:40 Christie on. Smith had been really crisp - still got it on the passing.
69:00 ABs never make Ad line a single time off a lineout and tried to run out of their half. Not smart, and probably not a coincidence Mo'unga is on.
72:23 Grass cutter / cannonball tackle from Green 16. One hand on the ground, one "wrapping". Should have been penalised. Not the first one from green players either, I might add. A midfield bomb from black just outside their 22. What?
73:15 green 14 takes out Black 10. That was beyond clumsy and hardly an aerial challenge. Red every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
73:44 Black 23 crossing in front of Black 12 is the 12th penalty conceded by Black against 6 from the Boks. Jeez.
77:53 Black 20 scores after a couple of passes in no-man's land and Black 11 hitting a line between 2 props. Nothing structured about that - individual talent but worth noting that keeping the ball alive eventually broke down the Bok structures (bench tho) and got a mismatch. Not nearly enough of that IMHO.
That last try was just embarrassing... -
@reprobate said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@His-Bobness said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
It's really not rocket science. New Zealand Rugby made a catastrophic error in appointing Foster. He may be a nice chap, but he is not an innovator and does not have the imagination to take the game forward. As countless others have pointed out, he's like a hack chef who inherited a five-star restaurant and never changed the menu.
Goddamn brilliant analogy.
I'll die in my ditch alone on this, but I can understand the initial Foster appointment because of the historic success. It's the reappointment last year that I was absolutely dirty on.
I strongly disagreed with the initial Foster choice, because he hadn't been the head coach of a successful side, and pretty clearly that ought to be a requirement. Also we had seen Rennie take over his long-term Chiefs team and basically fix it overnight. At that time it was still possible to think 'well, maybe those inside the camp have seen enough from him to know that he is actually some sort of genius despite the lack of qualification - but they better be fucking right'.
Turns out they weren't, which makes the whole thing just an astonishing hiring debacle from the NZRU.Rennie also instigated real leadership in the Chiefs and chose the right captain. Love to know what he'd recommend re:captain.
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@NTA I glad you bought this up.
43:11 High kick into the 22 from green and no fewer than 8 black players are running towards it. Why? The lack of communication has black 7 taking out black 15 and losing the ball.
I have never seen so many players descend on one high kick at once. Porque??? It was worse than bumble bee soccer in young kids.
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In summary, then.... well there are a few things that stand out:
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Sam Cane is not up to it any more, so Matfield was right in questioning that during the week. Cane is still a fine super player, but the edge he had as a younger man appears to have dulled. I think perhaps there are other opensides in the team who are worth taking a punt on like Papali'i.
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Game plan is not a game plan without "plan" in it. A few people have been banging this drum for a while, and the chickens have come home to roost: the simple logic of "we're just better than you" combined with "we can win a game off your mistakes" meant the rare losses were written off with a bad day at the office, or a red card, but really the Emperor has no clothes at this point. All that talent and no idea how to point it in the same direction.
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NZRU Admin must be quietly shitting themselves as they sharpen the stilletos to plunge into Foster's back. They had their chance to eject him but decided to let him knife underlings. Very bad leadership from the back office. The clamours for Razor won't die down from this point, even should the ABs win next week. There are a few swords that could be fallen on in the board room.
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Steve Hansen is the luckiest fluffybunny ever to coach the ABs.
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@broughie said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@NTA I glad you bought this up.
43:11 High kick into the 22 from green and no fewer than 8 black players are running towards it. Why? The lack of communication has black 7 taking out black 15 and losing the ball.
I have never seen so many players descend on one high kick at once. Porque??? It was worse than bumble bee soccer in young kids.
Seagulls to a fucking chip. Who was getting behind Barrett for cleanup duties? Who was getting ready to hit the ruck.
This looks like a group without a mission statement.
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@NTA said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
In summary, then.... well there are a few things that stand out:
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Sam Cane is not up to it any more, so Matfield was right in questioning that during the week. Cane is still a fine super player, but the edge he had as a younger man appears to have dulled. I think perhaps there are other opensides in the team who are worth taking a punt on like Papali'i.
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Game plan is not a game plan without "plan" in it. A few people have been banging this drum for a while, and the chickens have come home to roost: the simple logic of "we're just better than you" combined with "we can win a game off your mistakes" meant the rare losses were written off with a bad day at the office, or a red card, but really the Emperor has no clothes at this point. All that talent and no idea how to point it in the same direction.
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NZRU Admin must be quietly shitting themselves as they sharpen the stilletos to plunge into Foster's back. They had their chance to eject him but decided to let him knife underlings. Very bad leadership from the back office. The clamours for Razor won't die down from this point, even should the ABs win next week. There are a few swords that could be fallen on in the board room.
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Steve Hansen is the luckiest fluffybunny ever to coach the ABs.
Agreed but which of our props did you think were not up to it?
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@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@NTA said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
In summary, then.... well there are a few things that stand out:
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Sam Cane is not up to it any more, so Matfield was right in questioning that during the week. Cane is still a fine super player, but the edge he had as a younger man appears to have dulled. I think perhaps there are other opensides in the team who are worth taking a punt on like Papali'i.
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Game plan is not a game plan without "plan" in it. A few people have been banging this drum for a while, and the chickens have come home to roost: the simple logic of "we're just better than you" combined with "we can win a game off your mistakes" meant the rare losses were written off with a bad day at the office, or a red card, but really the Emperor has no clothes at this point. All that talent and no idea how to point it in the same direction.
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NZRU Admin must be quietly shitting themselves as they sharpen the stilletos to plunge into Foster's back. They had their chance to eject him but decided to let him knife underlings. Very bad leadership from the back office. The clamours for Razor won't die down from this point, even should the ABs win next week. There are a few swords that could be fallen on in the board room.
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Steve Hansen is the luckiest fluffybunny ever to coach the ABs.
Agreed but which of our props did you think were not up to it?
I actually think your second row is the place to start. Whitelock is no spring chicken and Barrett always looked like a temporary measure for me. Retallick was just rediscovering some form, but besides that....
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None of my posts should be taken in any other context than "The Boks are a very good side with a fairly solid history together, so any loss against them should be part of the accounting".
Marx is a fucking weapon.
Malherbe is rock solid.
The second rowers are huge slices of beef who know their job well, despite looking like a mutant male model and the work experience kids who just wandered onto the pitch.Sure, Nyakane is a fairly useless lump who is just there to hold up a scrum and lift at lineouts, but when you've got Kolisi, PSDT and Wiesser in your back row you don't need much other mobility.
Can say their game won't set TV sets on fire all over the world, but they do it effectively enough that they could lose one of the world's best halfbacks a few minutes in, and still execute.
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@NTA said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
None of my posts should be taken in any other context than "The Boks are a very good side with a fairly solid history together, so any loss against them should be part of the accounting".
Marx is a fucking weapon.
He is. But christ, just settling in to watch a replay and the first of a number of turnovers look as dodgy as shit. Leaning on players to get hands on the ball, and AG just looks at it and thinks 'fair enough'.
Honestly, what really really shits me is not the decision, but the lack of questioning followed by immediately doing exactly that at every ruck. We look slow, and trying to be technically correct without actually winning the goddamn ball.
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@NTA said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
0:21 - can't believe green 14 wasn't done for taking out black 15. I suspect this will be a pattern based on subsequent comments here...
A number of sides do it - jump through the space, take out the man in the air, and have an arm up to play at the ball. If refs let you get away with it, good for them, but it really pisses me off.
Subsequent scrum: going nowhere. Why not call use it? Black 1 was under pressure from the get go but everything was stationary
Yeah, this was annoying. Our scrum wasn't strong though. I think second row has a bit to do with that.
Overall impression is a number of aging players in the tight 5 who don't have the physicality they used to bring. Whitelock, Retallick, Cane, Taylor (when picked) - and then the props have been pants around the field. It just leaves a pack that is being laughed at by opposition, rather than being intimidating. And mental battles are huge in elite sport.
Fark it's so annoying. We need to pick players with more dynamism and mongrel, but I dont' know who the hell they are. We are not throwing the players out of the systems like we used to - and have been spoiled
