All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial that's always been the way though, the next big thing is always round the corner.
McCaw hit the field running, it was his leadership moreso that he took time with.
No way was early McCaw anywhere near prime McCaw and I remember the times when everyone was saying he was done and past it as well.
Whitelock has been past it for the last 5 years on and off.Point is that we admire the shape and job ownership of teams like Ireland but that is made a lot easier when you aren't ditching good players because another one catches your eye. The really really good ones will stand out but we often seem to think 'that guy might do better'.
Class is obvious and needs to be introduced but how many average 6s have we tried by searching. If no single class player is around then stick with the one guy that plays the way of the gameplan and let them develop IMO.
I think that is what they were wanting to do with Frizzel which is why he has been rushed back in as soon as available.
Injuries in these 'unsolved' areas like 6 and midfield really haven't helped but we also seem to get in a tangle.
What happens when ALB comes back. He is the class midfielder. Rieko has put all his chips on 13 and we are currently investing in others at 12. I'm not sure that Rieko back to wing is anything more than a short term thing anyway as he isn't far from hitting the wing cliff that so many others have.RTS, ALB, Ioane, DMac and Jordan could be a world class lethal backline if the rest of the team is firing but I doubt we'll ever see it.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
The solution is not to pick mediocre players who have been given years of chances and been found wanting.
And that was during a period of our tight five being pretty good. Picking him now, without fixing the tight five is going to expose his flaws even more.
And that’s without getting into his flaws as a human being.
Thing is that we could leave him out due to his personal failings if we had other 6's that ran straight and hard and stayed in the narrow channels.
As for giving players chances to develop, that is actually a problem we have from always looking for the next big thing rather than letting players develop. McCaw took years, even Carter was a 'project' at the start.
Ireland showed the possible benefits of investing in players (our discards).
I'm not saying that all mediocre players should be persisted with, just that sometimes in areas of weakness we need to back one horse rather than keep spreading bets.
An example may be QT in the midfield. He's no finished product by any means but it is possible to see a long term solid player there that we can build around. Bet we will ditch him for RTS.Um Akira was running straight and hard, tackling, moving bodies at the ruck in very last game. The amount of good play that people have to ignore to be on the hate bandwagon is hilarious.
As where he gets stationed, there are multiple Foster threads to discuss that.
Frizzel is just not up to test rugby. Same as PGS.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
The solution is not to pick mediocre players who have been given years of chances and been found wanting.
And that was during a period of our tight five being pretty good. Picking him now, without fixing the tight five is going to expose his flaws even more.
And that’s without getting into his flaws as a human being.
Thing is that we could leave him out due to his personal failings if we had other 6's that ran straight and hard and stayed in the narrow channels.
As for giving players chances to develop, that is actually a problem we have from always looking for the next big thing rather than letting players develop. McCaw took years, even Carter was a 'project' at the start.
Ireland showed the possible benefits of investing in players (our discards).
I'm not saying that all mediocre players should be persisted with, just that sometimes in areas of weakness we need to back one horse rather than keep spreading bets.
An example may be QT in the midfield. He's no finished product by any means but it is possible to see a long term solid player there that we can build around. Bet we will ditch him for RTS.Um Akira was running straight and hard, tackling, moving bodies at the ruck in very last game. The amount of good play that people have to ignore to be on the hate bandwagon is hilarious.
As where he gets stationed, there are multiple Foster threads to discuss that.
Frizzel is just not up to test rugby. Same as PGS.
Just because people don't see your favourite player in the same shining light you do doesn't make them haters.
Akira was never mentioned but you had to saddle up.I have nothing against Akira, certainly not a hater. Just don't see him fitting what we need at 6. Would be happy to see him at 8 but he would also be a bigger Ardie and probably isn't as accurate.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
No way was early McCaw anywhere near prime McCaw
I never said that, all I said was he hit the field running, meaning he looked the goods very early and went from there....obviously 2007 would have been an easy out for him to bail on the ABs or at the very least, no longer be captain.
On Akira, no way should he be used exclusively wide and loose like they try so often, sure when we get a mis match wide, his size and pace is always a bonus, but the problem is, these are the moments of brilliance our game seems to be relying on, fling it wide to Akira, hope he burns a man, busts another and then Jordan or Reece off his shoulder to score.
Instead we should be using him in closer to hit the defence, he will create opportunities there which will create space for guys like Jordan and Reece anyway...I have always hated the term 'earn the right to go wide' but I reckon the ABs need to look at that right now more than ever.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
No way was early McCaw anywhere near prime McCaw
I never said that, all I said was he hit the field running, meaning he looked the goods very early and went from there....obviously 2007 would have been an easy out for him to bail on the ABs or at the very least, no longer be captain.
On Akira, no way should he be used exclusively wide and loose like they try so often, sure when we get a mis match wide, his size and pace is always a bonus, but the problem is, these are the moments of brilliance our game seems to be relying on, fling it wide to Akira, hope he burns a man, busts another and then Jordan or Reece off his shoulder to score.
Instead we should be using him in closer to hit the defence, he will create opportunities there which will create space for guys like Jordan and Reece anyway...I have always hated the term 'earn the right to go wide' but I reckon the ABs need to look at that right now more than ever.
According to others he is doing that close in work. Is he or isn't he?
I'm loathe to get into an Akira discussion as that wasn't the point I was making. The point was that the coaches (whether right or wrong) obviously envision a certain type of player at 6.
If I had to try and pinpoint why Akira doesn't seem to fit that mould it would be that he may be viewed as an upper body player (if you get what I mean) rather than a leg drive one. I'm not entirely in tune with that but can see how it appears that a way. When he makes metres it is often through upper body strength. He doesn't often set a driving target for others to latch on to.
Plenty of coaching and tactical fault to throw at that. I'm not blaming the player. I can just kind of see what may be their vision, the one they are not very good at implementing.
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@Crucial I'm more talking of the gameplan that more often sees him stationed on the wing, as opposed to most often being used in closer where we seem to like to use our props who have almost zero impact, although the 2 passes right/left then one back left/right dont help anyone in the closer channels anyway.
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Um Akira was running straight and hard, tackling, moving bodies at the ruck in very last game. The amount of good play that people have to ignore to be on the hate bandwagon is hilarious.
I agree that he was good in the third test. I would like to see him running hard with a bit of depth. I think he has a tendency to want to palm off players when I think if he hit the line hard he would more than dent it and surely punish the opposition. But the All Blacks do everything flat which is part of the problem.
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@broughie said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
But the All Blacks do everything flat which is part of the problem.
and static, so many players take the ball practically standing still, and with the largely disciplined Irish rush defence, they were getting the ball and tacklers almost simultaneously.
I think they need to watch the Irish tests and see how they created space with a bit more depth, plenty of movement and pace.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial that's always been the way though, the next big thing is always round the corner.
McCaw hit the field running, it was his leadership moreso that he took time with.
No way was early McCaw anywhere near prime McCaw and I remember the times when everyone was saying he was done and past it as well.
Whitelock has been past it for the last 5 years on and off.Point is that we admire the shape and job ownership of teams like Ireland but that is made a lot easier when you aren't ditching good players because another one catches your eye. The really really good ones will stand out but we often seem to think 'that guy might do better'.
Class is obvious and needs to be introduced but how many average 6s have we tried by searching. If no single class player is around then stick with the one guy that plays the way of the gameplan and let them develop IMO.
I think that is what they were wanting to do with Frizzel which is why he has been rushed back in as soon as available.
Injuries in these 'unsolved' areas like 6 and midfield really haven't helped but we also seem to get in a tangle.
What happens when ALB comes back. He is the class midfielder. Rieko has put all his chips on 13 and we are currently investing in others at 12. I'm not sure that Rieko back to wing is anything more than a short term thing anyway as he isn't far from hitting the wing cliff that so many others have.RTS, ALB, Ioane, DMac and Jordan could be a world class lethal backline if the rest of the team is firing but I doubt we'll ever see it.
Hold on, where is the Canterbury mafia here?
Of course early McCaw wasn't the absolute best player in the world McCaw, but McCaw was also MOTM in his first international game. It was clear that he was the future and the was established as the best 7 in NZ within his first season. To even compare that to Frizell is stretching the longest of bows here.
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McCaw pushed out a very good, experienced, 7. It seemed bizarre at the time, but went on to be the right decision.
Frizzell can't even get a nailed in spot in a side searching for the right 6.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial that's always been the way though, the next big thing is always round the corner.
McCaw hit the field running, it was his leadership moreso that he took time with.
No way was early McCaw anywhere near prime McCaw and I remember the times when everyone was saying he was done and past it as well.
Whitelock has been past it for the last 5 years on and off.Point is that we admire the shape and job ownership of teams like Ireland but that is made a lot easier when you aren't ditching good players because another one catches your eye. The really really good ones will stand out but we often seem to think 'that guy might do better'.
Class is obvious and needs to be introduced but how many average 6s have we tried by searching. If no single class player is around then stick with the one guy that plays the way of the gameplan and let them develop IMO.
I think that is what they were wanting to do with Frizzel which is why he has been rushed back in as soon as available.
Injuries in these 'unsolved' areas like 6 and midfield really haven't helped but we also seem to get in a tangle.
What happens when ALB comes back. He is the class midfielder. Rieko has put all his chips on 13 and we are currently investing in others at 12. I'm not sure that Rieko back to wing is anything more than a short term thing anyway as he isn't far from hitting the wing cliff that so many others have.RTS, ALB, Ioane, DMac and Jordan could be a world class lethal backline if the rest of the team is firing but I doubt we'll ever see it.
Hold on, where is the Canterbury mafia here?
Of course early McCaw wasn't the absolute best player in the world McCaw, but McCaw was also MOTM in his first international game. It was clear that he was the future and the was established as the best 7 in NZ within his first season. To even compare that to Frizell is stretching the longest of bows here.
To think I am comparing him with Frizell is an even longer bow.
The point was that sometimes a finished product is worth investing time in. If you think you can see that you can improve a player to a top level then stop looking for something better.
Happy to join the wonder that they see this in Frizell but maybe they are closer to the smaller detail.
MCCaw was only used as an example that lots of players improve with time. He had some early performances that were less than stellar especially before he found his invisibility cloak. Penalties in the infamous caketin loss to the poms were an example IIRC. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@gt12 said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial that's always been the way though, the next big thing is always round the corner.
McCaw hit the field running, it was his leadership moreso that he took time with.
No way was early McCaw anywhere near prime McCaw and I remember the times when everyone was saying he was done and past it as well.
Whitelock has been past it for the last 5 years on and off.Point is that we admire the shape and job ownership of teams like Ireland but that is made a lot easier when you aren't ditching good players because another one catches your eye. The really really good ones will stand out but we often seem to think 'that guy might do better'.
Class is obvious and needs to be introduced but how many average 6s have we tried by searching. If no single class player is around then stick with the one guy that plays the way of the gameplan and let them develop IMO.
I think that is what they were wanting to do with Frizzel which is why he has been rushed back in as soon as available.
Injuries in these 'unsolved' areas like 6 and midfield really haven't helped but we also seem to get in a tangle.
What happens when ALB comes back. He is the class midfielder. Rieko has put all his chips on 13 and we are currently investing in others at 12. I'm not sure that Rieko back to wing is anything more than a short term thing anyway as he isn't far from hitting the wing cliff that so many others have.RTS, ALB, Ioane, DMac and Jordan could be a world class lethal backline if the rest of the team is firing but I doubt we'll ever see it.
Hold on, where is the Canterbury mafia here?
Of course early McCaw wasn't the absolute best player in the world McCaw, but McCaw was also MOTM in his first international game. It was clear that he was the future and the was established as the best 7 in NZ within his first season. To even compare that to Frizell is stretching the longest of bows here.
To think I am comparing him with Frizell is an even longer bow.
The point was that sometimes a finished product is worth investing time in. If you think you can see that you can improve a player to a top level then stop looking for something better.
Happy to join the wonder that they see this in Frizell but maybe they are closer to the smaller detail.
MCCaw was only used as an example that lots of players improve with time. He had some early performances that were less than stellar especially before he found his invisibility cloak. Penalties in the infamous caketin loss to the poms were an example IIRC.We did not lose that day because of McCaw.
if you want to make this analogy, you could at least try to use Kaino, who wasn't the answer, then was. But the ridiculousness of comparison Frizell to Kaino is apparent as well.
If I had to compare him to someone, it would be Patty T, who at Super level can do a job, and looks to have the physical gifts, but for whatever reason just can't do that job at Test level. It could be that Pat T has never had the consistent selection and if selected might show that form over time. That's the closest I can get to explaining the continued chances of Frizell.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
RTS, ALB, Ioane, DMac and Jordan could be a world class lethal backline if the rest of the team is firing but I doubt we'll ever see it.
There's a fair bit to be proven at test level with that combo - 12 RTS; 14 DMac; 15 Jordan.
Add in Smith and Barrett/Mo'unga and it's a bit on the small side.
I don't mind Jordie at 15 as a big body to truck the ball up (I'm still in no rush to push Will into 15). Caleb Clark might help with that as well, but if Rieko is sent back to the wing, Caleb only makes the bench at best.
All moot while ALB (and Goodhue?) is out in any case. Quite possible that those two are the preferred midfield and I can't even tell you who plays in which jersey!
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
RTS, ALB, Ioane, DMac and Jordan could be a world class lethal backline if the rest of the team is firing but I doubt we'll ever see it.
> There's a fair bit to be proven at test level with that combo - 12 RTS; 14 DMac; 15 Jordan.
Add in Smith and Barrett/Mo'unga and it's a bit on the small side.
I don't mind Jordie at 15 as a big body to truck the ball up (I'm still in no rush to push Will into 15). Caleb Clark might help with that as well, but if Rieko is sent back to the wing, Caleb only makes the bench at best.
All moot while ALB (and Goodhue?) is out in any case. Quite possible that those two are the preferred midfield and I can't even tell you who plays in which jersey!
I doubt it would even be seen but give those guys clean front foot ball and it would be fun to watch.
Clean front foot ball also seems a dream these days. -
This is an innocent question but is Goodhue an international-level 12? Loved him at 13 (great rugby brain and distribution) but he was slowish at international level before his injuries and I heard early reports he was taking awhile to adjust to 12-and I haven't seen the Crusader games..
So, serious question, has he looked amongst the frontrunners at 12? (Given he seems to have lost even more speed I assume he is not a frontrunner at 13). -
@Kirwan said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
The solution is not to pick mediocre players who have been given years of chances and been found wanting.
And that was during a period of our tight five being pretty good. Picking him now, without fixing the tight five is going to expose his flaws even more.
And that’s without getting into his flaws as a human being.
I assume this was aimed at me. I dunno. But for the broken record, I am an Akira fan (seem to see him more as an 8 but hey). But he is a confidence player, and needs to be motivated and he needs a better fit with team strategy (as in, the current team strategy sucks big hairy lemons).
But when it comes to the ABs I'd rather they sort out the team than have my fave players dragged down by an albatross coach and rugby board.
So I'm not going to argue Shannon vs Akira. I prefer Akira but it is a small cut rather than a big one. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in All Blacks squad - The Rugby Championship:
RTS, ALB, Ioane, DMac and Jordan could be a world class lethal backline if the rest of the team is firing but I doubt we'll ever see it.
There's a fair bit to be proven at test level with that combo - 12 RTS; 14 DMac; 15 Jordan.
Add in Smith and Barrett/Mo'unga and it's a bit on the small side.
I don't mind Jordie at 15 as a big body to truck the ball up (I'm still in no rush to push Will into 15). Caleb Clark might help with that as well, but if Rieko is sent back to the wing, Caleb only makes the bench at best.
All moot while ALB (and Goodhue?) is out in any case. Quite possible that those two are the preferred midfield and I can't even tell you who plays in which jersey!
BB, RTS, ALB, Ioane, DMac and Jordan
-the only small guy there is DMac. RTS is nearly 100 kg and a six footer. As big or bigger than Crotty (who could play at 13!). Havilli is 1-2cm taller but lighter.
