Foster, Robertson etc
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I'm not arguing I'm just offering advice.
It is best to stick with Foster because to replace him now with another coach, who has a superior win record, is just inviting chaos. Unless we have criteria that would have kept out Foster, even though we didn't choose him and any criteria the NZR has for him is written in a foam contract with marker pens, locked away in Hansen's jockstrap.
No, far better to leave him there, with his invisible contract KPI and let the NZR in their infinite wisdom steal more of Razor's team to give to the guy who has just been strategic by firing half of his coaching team.
Best to rely on learnings. Like getting Shannon back and hey Jordie can still play on the wing with his new haircut. Ennor is proven class at midfield. And it's time to give Taylor a run at 6-everyone else has.
So why not let Razor and the others gain international experience by taking all their learnings to overseas teams.
Who, let us face it, already know the ABs gameplan inside and out so we might as well send all our future potential AB coaches overseas so they can share their secrets with our competitors.
So that is my advice. Leave the coach with one of the worse recent coaching records in control (if you can call it control) because there is a chance (as big as a shrew's penis) that we will get a worse coach if we actually want a coach who will win a series or two against any team higher than Tonga C or Australia B (if they choose another 10 straight out of high school). And let the other NZ coaches bugger off overseas because they dare to lead winning teams.I assume from the first line you're replying to me.
But nope, after reading your post thru 4-5 times, it still doesn't make any sense. Let's assume it was a poor attempt at irony or sarcasm from what you think my position is - so I'll try to help you as simply as I can as you seem to be struggling.
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I think Foster should have been replaced after the Irish series. I don't think he's all to blame for the majority of problems (which appear deep), but he's not the man to fix them either
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NZR needs to take a structured look at the problems in NZ rugby and work out short, medium and long term plans to resolve them. Communication would be good.
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Just as players can look class at SR level but suck at Test level (see Bridge, George) there's a risk that Coaches who look a million dollars at SR level won't at Test level.
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Changing the coach isn't a magic solution and also carries a high level of risk if it simply kicks the can of worms down the road very close to RWC 2023.
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To mitigate the risks, NZR should set a limit of, say, 9 games to demonstrate improvement. If that ain't forthcoming then the performance of the new coaching team needs to be re-evaluated and changes made as appropriate.
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There are no simple, magic solutions which are going to fix things quickly - it's probably going to take some time.
Hope that's clear.
Nope, I think you are struggling. Nobody else said another coach was a magic solution. You are arguing with pixel dust.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Catogrande said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@No-Quarter said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I know Grandpa, everything was better in the good old days, now let's get you back to bed
No, AB sides's were often pretty shit back then.
Motorcycles of that era, on the other hand, were way more exciting to ride than today's computer-assisted machines...
But still managed to beat most sides on a regular basis. My heart bleeds for you poor kiwis back in the day
We used to lose to Irish club sides back then. Heck, we even lost to England at home. Don't blame us Kiwi's for having high standards...
Hells teeth and Welsh club sides, and generally a couple of Saffa provinces on any tour, Strange though it was bloody fun following the game not expecting to win, generally winning a lot more than we lost but always pretty nervous. Mind you we expected to see touring teams beaten by a couple of our provincial teams too!
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Nope, I think you are struggling. Nobody else said another coach was a magic solution. You are arguing with pixel dust.
Fair play to @Victor-Meldrew, there are some who talk about Robertson as the single handed saviour of the ABs, hence the Jesus Chrobertson joke. He's clearly the best available option now, but the issues run deeper than just the coach.
NZR (poorly governed, as always), drove away Rennie and Joseph (as two prime examples) at the end of 2015. Robertson was last man standing. Ideally he'd go and get some international experience overseas before coming back. However, we missed that chance.
The risk is that Robertson's skillset doesn't transfer to the top level. I think he'll be miles better than Foster, but @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out - what if he isn't. Super and Test are different games, and more importantly, the prep and challenge is fundamentally different. Super you get players for extended periods, based together, and a clear squad start to finish. Tests you get far more fragmentation with schedules and people, and it's melding different people with different playing styles together.
In my benevolent dictatorship, NZR appointed Robertson last year and we see what he's got. But it ain't happening.
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@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Nope, I think you are struggling. Nobody else said another coach was a magic solution. You are arguing with pixel dust.
Fair play to @Victor-Meldrew, there are some who talk about Robertson as the single handed saviour of the ABs, hence the Jesus Chrobertson joke. He's clearly the best available option now, but the issues run deeper than just the coach.
NZR (poorly governed, as always), drove away Rennie and Joseph (as two prime examples) at the end of 2015. Robertson was last man standing. Ideally he'd go and get some international experience overseas before coming back. However, we missed that chance.
The risk is that Robertson's skillset doesn't transfer to the top level. I think he'll be miles better than Foster, but @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out - what if he isn't. Super and Test are different games, and more importantly, the prep and challenge is fundamentally different. Super you get players for extended periods, based together, and a clear squad start to finish. Tests you get far more fragmentation with schedules and people, and it's melding different people with different playing styles together.
In my benevolent dictatorship, NZR appointed Robertson last year and we see what he's got. But it ain't happening.
Not sure if you could say Joseph and Rennie were driven away. We have only one top job and they both wanted to be a head coach at test level. You aren't going to change that situation and we know from Hart/Grizz that two head coaches doesn't work.
Can't keep everyone. -
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
We have only one top job and they both wanted to be a head coach at test level.
Everyone who's up and coming wants to slot right in at Head Coach - rather than do the hard yards as Assistant coach where they can get experience and develop at Test level. Whatever the cause is, it's something NZR needs to look at and get its coaching development & succession planning right.
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Nope, I think you are struggling. Nobody else said another coach was a magic solution. You are arguing with pixel dust.
Fair play to @Victor-Meldrew, there are some who talk about Robertson as the single handed saviour of the ABs, hence the Jesus Chrobertson joke. He's clearly the best available option now, but the issues run deeper than just the coach.
NZR (poorly governed, as always), drove away Rennie and Joseph (as two prime examples) at the end of 2015. Robertson was last man standing. Ideally he'd go and get some international experience overseas before coming back. However, we missed that chance.
The risk is that Robertson's skillset doesn't transfer to the top level. I think he'll be miles better than Foster, but @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out - what if he isn't. Super and Test are different games, and more importantly, the prep and challenge is fundamentally different. Super you get players for extended periods, based together, and a clear squad start to finish. Tests you get far more fragmentation with schedules and people, and it's melding different people with different playing styles together.
In my benevolent dictatorship, NZR appointed Robertson last year and we see what he's got. But it ain't happening.
Not sure if you could say Joseph and Rennie were driven away. We have only one top job and they both wanted to be a head coach at test level. You aren't going to change that situation and we know from Hart/Grizz that two head coaches doesn't work.
Can't keep everyone.They didn't apply. I think it was because of NZR's timing (latest job to go), and the presumption that Foster was the incumbent (his to lose). You can frame that however you like, but the fact we only got two applications for coaching the most successful rugby team of all time is telling.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
We have only one top job and they both wanted to be a head coach at test level.
Everyone who's up and coming wants to slot right in at Head Coach - rather than do the hard yards as Assistant coach where they can get experience and develop at Test level. Whatever the cause is, it's something NZR needs to look at and get its coaching development & succession planning right.
Even with that (and so many arguments here about succession from within not being the way to go) you have a few assistants that are all gunning to succeed and then moving on as soon as they don't.
Just like players, the timing is often out and it is better for your career and family to go elsewhere. -
@Victor-Meldrew all well and good to have a succession plan in place but if you can’t identify good coaches and the old boy network prevails you end up with Foster. So you’re right it is more than Foster although he is useless.
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@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Nope, I think you are struggling. Nobody else said another coach was a magic solution. You are arguing with pixel dust.
Fair play to @Victor-Meldrew, there are some who talk about Robertson as the single handed saviour of the ABs, hence the Jesus Chrobertson joke. He's clearly the best available option now, but the issues run deeper than just the coach.
NZR (poorly governed, as always), drove away Rennie and Joseph (as two prime examples) at the end of 2015. Robertson was last man standing. Ideally he'd go and get some international experience overseas before coming back. However, we missed that chance.
The risk is that Robertson's skillset doesn't transfer to the top level. I think he'll be miles better than Foster, but @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out - what if he isn't. Super and Test are different games, and more importantly, the prep and challenge is fundamentally different. Super you get players for extended periods, based together, and a clear squad start to finish. Tests you get far more fragmentation with schedules and people, and it's melding different people with different playing styles together.
In my benevolent dictatorship, NZR appointed Robertson last year and we see what he's got. But it ain't happening.
Good post mate, agree completely, and as you say having only 2 applications for the top job is not a good outcome whatever the reasons so NZR need to look closely at that.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think right now our best candidate is Schmidt, he has the test experience and a fantastic record. I'd love it if Robertson would work with him in an assistant role, with the goal of taking over the reigns down the track if all goes well.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I think right now our best candidate is Schmidt, he has the test experience and a fantastic record. I'd love it if Robertson would work with him in an assistant role, with the goal of taking over the reigns down the track if all goes well.
That is exactly what the sauce is saying will happen. Let's hope so.
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@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@No-Quarter said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I think right now our best candidate is Schmidt, he has the test experience and a fantastic record. I'd love it if Robertson would work with him in an assistant role, with the goal of taking over the reigns down the track if all goes well.
That is exactly what the sauce is saying will happen. Let's hope so.
I'd say Joe as a caretaker to finish of the RC then Robertson to take EOYT so he can have players in camp and test a few out prior to next year.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think right now our best candidate is Schmidt, he has the test experience and a fantastic record. I'd love it if Robertson would work with him in an assistant role, with the goal of taking over the reigns down the track if all goes well.
100%. But it would require some joined-up thinking which seems to be in short supply with NZR.
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@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew all well and good to have a succession plan in place but if you can’t identify good coaches and the old boy network prevails you end up with Foster. So you’re right it is more than Foster although he is useless.
Not just identify, but develop and ensure availability.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew all well and good to have a succession plan in place but if you can’t identify good coaches and the old boy network prevails you end up with Foster. So you’re right it is more than Foster although he is useless.
Not just identify, but develop and ensure availability.
I wouldn’t be holding to that given the way coaches move to all parts of the world for opportunities and different life experiences.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew all well and good to have a succession plan in place but if you can’t identify good coaches and the old boy network prevails you end up with Foster. So you’re right it is more than Foster although he is useless.
Not just identify, but develop and ensure availability.
I wouldn’t be holding to that given the way coaches move to all parts of the world for opportunities and different life experiences.
partially a product of the reasonably closed shop NZR have run since '03. NZ has limited coaching slots; 5 Super gigs, that just aren't well paid.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew all well and good to have a succession plan in place but if you can’t identify good coaches and the old boy network prevails you end up with Foster. So you’re right it is more than Foster although he is useless.
Not just identify, but develop and ensure availability.
I wouldn’t be holding to that given the way coaches move to all parts of the world for opportunities and different life experiences.
Fair point. But it would be comforting to think NZR have thought about making it happen.
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@Bones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I'm loving how so many were bemoaning the succession planning that led to Foster head coach, and now we've come around to saying NZR should be succession planning so that we get the best coaches.
Foster's succession was unjustified. We didn't have the 2019 RWC win to springboard him in, it was essentially a closed race as evidenced by other top candidates not even bothering to apply
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@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@No-Quarter said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I think right now our best candidate is Schmidt, he has the test experience and a fantastic record. I'd love it if Robertson would work with him in an assistant role, with the goal of taking over the reigns down the track if all goes well.
That is exactly what the sauce is saying will happen. Let's hope so.
Who's your sauce? chchrugbyfan?
