Foster, Robertson etc
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@Machpants said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Phil Gifford: Why I'm backing Razor as next All Blacks coach
The only coach I’ve met who burned with the same fervour as Robertson was Fred Allen.
I agree
Not having read past the paywall, does his hypothesis downgrade the valuing of Joe Schmidt? Seems to me to have been more of an organizer and taskmaster with Ireland than an outright innovative strategist?
Having spent several weeks pondering great, good, average, and just not very good All Blacks coaches, it became clear the best coaches were the innovators. -
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Machpants said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Phil Gifford: Why I'm backing Razor as next All Blacks coach
The only coach I’ve met who burned with the same fervour as Robertson was Fred Allen.
I agree
Not having read past the paywall, does his hypothesis downgrade the valuing of Joe Schmidt? Seems to me to have been more of an organizer and taskmaster with Ireland than an outright innovative strategist?
Having spent several weeks pondering great, good, average, and just not very good All Blacks coaches, it became clear the best coaches were the innovators.Schmidt not mentioned as he is not running for coach, so why would you mention him? He's irrelevant
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@Machpants said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Machpants said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Phil Gifford: Why I'm backing Razor as next All Blacks coach
The only coach I’ve met who burned with the same fervour as Robertson was Fred Allen.
I agree
Not having read past the paywall, does his hypothesis downgrade the valuing of Joe Schmidt? Seems to me to have been more of an organizer and taskmaster with Ireland than an outright innovative strategist?
Having spent several weeks pondering great, good, average, and just not very good All Blacks coaches, it became clear the best coaches were the innovators.Schmidt not mentioned as he is not running for coach, so why would you mention him? He's irrelevant
I'm sorry, I'm a bit off topic. Not meaning in terms of AB coach, just interested in whether his analysis is correct, that the best coaches are always innovators.
Seems intuitive, but sometimes people who carry on what is working well or who teaches basics and bring them back to a more unified game plan may be worth considering as coaches.
Might not seem relevant to ABS in the past, when usually other teams are trying to catch up but now it seems to me we are playing catch up AND seem to have lost some shine and robustness around basic skills.
So long story short, not sure looking at past AB coaching success is guaranteed 100% relevant here.
Innovation is good, but sometimes so is solid, robust discipline when the team is on the slide... -
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan heard him speak last October, outstanding, a guy at my table said it was the 3rd time he had heard him speak, and each time, different, but equally excellent.
Said Wayne Smith, Richie among others as having a big influence on him too.
I think a lot of these sort of people fire off each other and you get magic happening in coaching set-ups.
A bit OT but a friends missus is a head teacher in Wales who heard Graham Henry speak at a few education events when he was there. Calls him probably the most inspiring educationalist she'd heard.
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No one had posted this:
All Blacks great Ma’a Nonu and former Black Sox player and coach Eddie Kohlhase are poised to be on the panel assembled by New Zealand Rugby to pick the next All Blacks coach, while current players will also have their say.
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@Bovidae said in Foster, Robertson etc:
No one had posted this:
All Blacks great Ma’a NonIu and former Black Sox player and coach Eddie Kohlhase are poised to be on the panel assembled by New Zealand Rugby to pick the next All Blacks coach, while current players will also have their say.
It is absurd that current players should have any say (at all) in who their next boss is.
If this was common practice some of the best coaches across history would've never gotten a look in as players disliked their intensity - look at RWC winning coach Jake White, many of the players from that 2007 campaign don't want anything to do with him because by all accounts he was a bit of a prick, was an obsessed, detailed, driven & very demanding coach and so many other successful coaches, Bob Dyer, Eddie Jones, Rassie Erasmus, all equally driven hard taskmasters and had intense personalities that many players found uncomfortable at times.
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@kiwi_expat I doubt that current players will be involved in rating or commenting on applicants. More likely that their part in the process will be to be interviewed themselves for information on requirements. Eg what are the coaching improvement areas and gaps that they see. What attributes do the players feel they respect etc
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"That adds another layer of intrigue to the race, with players coached by Robertson at the Crusaders having an opportunity to let their views be known."
That's really interesting. I've heard from a couple of different sources that Robertson got mixed ratings from Crusaders players the last time he applied for the job (didn't rate his technical knowledge)
Plus its been reported several times that the players who went to NZR to prevent Robertson getting the job this year included some senior Crusaders players
If Robertson has pissed off people at NZR (of course he has) then this might be setting up the reasoning for going with Joseph
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bovidae said in Foster, Robertson etc:
No one had posted this:
All Blacks great Ma’a NonIu and former Black Sox player and coach Eddie Kohlhase are poised to be on the panel assembled by New Zealand Rugby to pick the next All Blacks coach, while current players will also have their say.
It is absurd that current players should have any say (at all) in who their next boss is.
If this was common practice some of the best coaches across history would've never gotten a look in as players disliked their intensity - look at RWC winning coach Jake White, many of the players from that 2007 campaign don't want anything to do with him because by all accounts he was a bit of a prick, was an obsessed, detailed, driven & very demanding coach and so many other successful coaches, Bob Dyer, Eddie Jones, Rassie Erasmus, all equally driven hard taskmasters and had intense personalities that many players found uncomfortable at times.
Ok but current players also consist of players who the new coach won't be their next boss is, Nugget,, Lurch, RMo , Coles etc won't be involved as they packing their bags or retiring so won't be involved in team! Though I tend to think that Crucial has got idea, they will get their opinions on waht they think skills etc the new coach should have, and makes sense.
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The NZR board ultimately makes the final decision after the recommendation of the panel. I would expect some of the leadership group will be asked for their input in a general sense but they would need to speak to a cross-section of players from across the 5 SR teams. Canvassing opinions from some of the newer ABs wouldn't be a bad idea either.
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@Chris he started coaching halfway thru 2007 as he’d come back from overseas. They’d been middle of table then he help turn it around. They lost the final that year and went undefeated in 2008/09. He then coached them into Div 1 2010/11.
He hasn’t had a lot to do with the club in last few years apart from support his kids etc. -
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
It is absurd that current players should have any say (at all) in who their next boss is
No it isn't. It's pretty dumb not to get as much input as you can from key stakeholders - in this case the players - who have experience of working with the candidates or have thoughts on the qualities possessed and needed.
You're not choosing a CEO to hire and fire, you're picking a bloke to get the best out of 30 or so mainly current players and you don't do that by ignoring them and treating them like factory-floor workers.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
No it isn't. It's pretty dumb not to get as much input as you can from key stakeholders - in this case the players - who have experience of working with the candidates or have thoughts on the qualities possessed and needed.
Yeah, senior players that have been at the Crusaders and All Blacks have an interesting perspective. Of course you'd have to consider players self interest in giving praise.. or personality issues with negative feedback.
However if there are weaknesses/concerns it would be negligent to not to get their feedback
Same with Joseph. Smith should be able to give some insight on him. Just don't ask him to write it down and expect something coherent.
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@Duluth said in Foster, Robertson etc:
"That adds another layer of intrigue to the race, with players coached by Robertson at the Crusaders having an opportunity to let their views be known."
> That's eally interesting. I've heard from a couple of different sources that Robertson got mixed ratings from Crusaders players the last time he applied for the job (didn't rate his technical knowledge)
Plus its been reported several times that the players who went to NZR to prevent Robertson getting the job this year included some senior Crusaders players
If Robertson has pissed off people at NZR (of course he has) then this might be setting up the reasoning for going with Joseph
Not sure this is correct I hear different
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@Duluth said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I've heard from a couple of different sources that Robertson got mixed ratings from Crusaders players the last time he applied for the job (didn't rate his technical knowledge)
Even if true this wouldn't surprise me, technical knowledge is more important for assistant coaches, Hansen the most successful AB head coach certainly wasn't a gifted coach technically, remember his stint as forwards/lineout coach under Henry, people thought he was clueless. It's less about what you know as a head coach, it's more about your emotional quotient, this was where Hansen was strong, he was the ultimate horse whisperer.
Ali Williams talking about Hansen's legacy:
"Steve Hansen is definitely a man with a lot of character."
"He has his own way of doing things. He’s quite personable in terms of his understanding of players, his skill is finding and understanding what a player really wants to do and achieve."
"To me, that sums Steve Hansen up. He’s not overly technical but you don’t need to be at that level. He’s a person that can get inside your brain and understand you and get the best out of you. He makes you believe what you need to believe to perform at your best."
"That’s part of what differentiates Steve Hansen from other All Black coaches. He was very much on the forefront of the youth in terms of the players’ mind. He got down to that level."
"Wayne Smith and Graham Henry were very technical and analytical coaches while Hansen was very individualized to ensure he got the best out of every player."
This sounds very similar to the traits that Robertson carries, he really gets inside his player's minds as a motivator & captures the imagination in different ways, gets them playing above themselves, evidently for things much greater than themselves during knockout matches, we see individuals who aren't particularly gifted physically out-performing more talented players collectively, inevitably the players again lift to another level, become 'greater than the sum of parts' when it's knockout rugby time.
Seems to indicate a coach who's very skilled in getting the best out of every individual player, a horse whisperer if you may.
Crusaders' attitude resolve and commitment on defense when it's on the line speaks of their mindset, they are unrelenting, every single player putting their body on the line for a greater cause, I believe Razor's theming has been centered around and tied right into their defensive systems in previous years.
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The most important qualities for a head coach is their man-management, getting maximum output from every player in the squad, cultivating the group culture.
Because while Henry was technically a better coach - Hansen was the better man manager, hence the All Blacks only improved once he moved into the head coaching role.
'Ruthless and 'resented': Kieran Read spills on former All Blacks coach
Kieran Read says the culture instilled could be a "lonely place" for players.
Kieran Read says the culture Sir Graham Henry fostered within the All Blacks "needed to change" and Steve Hansen was the man who made it happen.
Read describes life as an All Black under the management of Henry and Hansen as two completely different experiences, the former noted for lavishing attention on his star players at the expense of those in the wider squad.
Indeed, the way each head coach managed their squads was the biggest observable difference between the men as far as Read was concerned.
The former All Blacks captain describes Henry as a coach that emphasised the importance of the team's next match over any long-term strategy. That emphasis often led to estrangement within the squad.
"Graham was a ruthless competitor with a steely focus on what was important for the game at hand. Therefore, if you weren't necessary for that week's job, you could find yourself on the outer pretty quickly," Read says in his recently-released autobiography Straight Eight.
"It can be a lonely place for a player, standing on the fringe of the All Blacks, never quite knowing where you stand.
"I think some of those guys resented the way that made them feel, even though it was never through any malicious intent on Graham's part."
For Read though, he found that the fact he was a rising star in the side gave him a completely different experience to those on the outer.
"I had got on with Graham well, but much of our relationship was built upon the fact I had quickly become a starter in the side and therefore had the chance to communicate with him daily."
When the time came for Steve Hansen to take over the side in 2012, Read's observations of elitism within the squad were dealt with by an incoming coach with a fresh attitude to man-management.
"'The All Blacks within the All Blacks' mentality needed to change, and he was going to change it," Read said of Hansen, though his new boss's approach still took some time to get used to.
"Steve was not without his idiosyncrasies of course. He could be deviously manipulative when he wanted to be, painfully cryptic too, and needed his people to know that ultimately he was in charge.
"For all that, though, there was an awful lot of softness underneath, and we could tell that he genuinely cared about all his players in a way that Graham could never fully express."
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
The most important qualities for a head coach is their man-management, getting maximum output from every player in the squad, cultivating the group culture.
Because while Henry was technically a better coach - Hansen was the better man manager, hence the All Blacks only improved once he moved into the head coaching role.
'Ruthless and 'resented': Kieran Read spills on former All Blacks coach
Kieran Read says the culture instilled could be a "lonely place" for players.
Kieran Read says the culture Sir Graham Henry fostered within the All Blacks "needed to change" and Steve Hansen was the man who made it happen.
Read describes life as an All Black under the management of Henry and Hansen as two completely different experiences, the former noted for lavishing attention on his star players at the expense of those in the wider squad.
Indeed, the way each head coach managed their squads was the biggest observable difference between the men as far as Read was concerned.
The former All Blacks captain describes Henry as a coach that emphasised the importance of the team's next match over any long-term strategy. That emphasis often led to estrangement within the squad.
"Graham was a ruthless competitor with a steely focus on what was important for the game at hand. Therefore, if you weren't necessary for that week's job, you could find yourself on the outer pretty quickly," Read says in his recently-released autobiography Straight Eight.
"It can be a lonely place for a player, standing on the fringe of the All Blacks, never quite knowing where you stand.
"I think some of those guys resented the way that made them feel, even though it was never through any malicious intent on Graham's part."
For Read though, he found that the fact he was a rising star in the side gave him a completely different experience to those on the outer.
"I had got on with Graham well, but much of our relationship was built upon the fact I had quickly become a starter in the side and therefore had the chance to communicate with him daily."
When the time came for Steve Hansen to take over the side in 2012, Read's observations of elitism within the squad were dealt with by an incoming coach with a fresh attitude to man-management.
"'The All Blacks within the All Blacks' mentality needed to change, and he was going to change it," Read said of Hansen, though his new boss's approach still took some time to get used to.
"Steve was not without his idiosyncrasies of course. He could be deviously manipulative when he wanted to be, painfully cryptic too, and needed his people to know that ultimately he was in charge.
"For all that, though, there was an awful lot of softness underneath, and we could tell that he genuinely cared about all his players in a way that Graham could never fully express."
That's interesting. Iirc the Lions players were pissed off at how GH treated the wider squad.
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We might be able to bin this thread soon.
