Foster, Robertson etc
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@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
Where?
Ask any Welshman. There were all there. Apparently.
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@kiwi_expat I still don't think he was a very good test coach, as I said his selecting was his problem.'He has been very successful at lower level though, and seems to be a very good coach at that level . There is nothing wrong with that, he has strengths that maybe don't really go with test rugby.
Hell has Rennie coached Wallabies to 30 tests already? -
I think this whole thing of what makes a good coach is very difficult to judge from the outside, particularly just going off results when there are lots of contributing factors,
and maybe only those on the inside really know,
The mcaw scenario of endorsing Ted over Deans comes to mind, when most of us were probably very surprised by that, not so much later in hindsight after the 11 WC win ,
but remembering back to when it actually happened,just after the 07 worst ever WC result and Deans was applying for the Job
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@Victor-Meldrew we do a much better haka now though
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@MiketheSnow why does Llanelli bang on about this like the All Blacks had never lost a midweek fixture before?
That 72 tour was a pretty average team.
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@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Yep like I said there was no way I was dissing Rennie or Smith, just saying comparing the teams from 2011 and 12 was like comparing apples and oranges, one was basically an area team, the other was a wider selection catergory. You can't compare what coaches of each team did with what they had is all. I will say I was always a Rennie fan, even if really looks to be struggling as a test coach.
If you can't compare the results of guys who coached a team immediately after another coach, then you can't really compare any coaches at all.
However, you're prepared to conclude that Deans was a poor test coach. Compared to what? He had a very poor record against the ABs, but he had access to no AB players and just a bunch of Aussies. He had a winning record against England, France, Ireland, Wales and South
Africa.Compared to what they've had since, he might well have been a genius!
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@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Pfft, don't you dare mofo, the Magpies made him, we sent him to the Chiefs fully formed in 2012.
He was a bad miss by the Crusaders though, they opted for Central Hawkes Bay's Dom Bird instead (and turned him into a pussy in the process), and now BBBR is one of the AB greats and lives in Central Hawkes Bay.
So, Big Brodie was just sitting there - almost fully formed and available to Foster (since no-one else had picked him up) in 2011?
My God!!! Fozzie's even worse than I'd thought!!!
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@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Pfft, don't you dare mofo, the Magpies made him, we sent him to the Chiefs fully formed in 2012.
He was a bad miss by the Crusaders though, they opted for Central Hawkes Bay's Dom Bird instead (and turned him into a pussy in the process), and now BBBR is one of the AB greats and lives in Central Hawkes Bay.
So, Big Brodie was just sitting there - almost fully formed and available to Foster (since no-one else had picked him up) in 2011?
My God!!! Fozzie's even worse than I'd thought!!!
Well, his "home" franchise was the Canes, so there's really no surprise why he wasn't noticed that year. Plus, I said we sent him fully formed to the Chiefs in 2012, we needed a couple of years to convert him from a fat Cantab into a studly Magpie.
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@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Yep like I said there was no way I was dissing Rennie or Smith, just saying comparing the teams from 2011 and 12 was like comparing apples and oranges, one was basically an area team, the other was a wider selection catergory. You can't compare what coaches of each team did with what they had is all. I will say I was always a Rennie fan, even if really looks to be struggling as a test coach.
If you can't compare the results of guys who coached a team immediately after another coach, then you can't really compare any coaches at all.
However, you're prepared to conclude that Deans was a poor test coach. Compared to what? He had a very poor record against the ABs, but he had access to no AB players and just a bunch of Aussies. He had a winning record against England, France, Ireland, Wales and South
Africa.Compared to what they've had since, he might well have been a genius!
No I was saying the team of 2012 was not the team as 2011, simply because it could be selected from a wider base, it's why test teams are better than super teams, wider pool of players to pick from. How have coaches gone head to head with teams they coach, is that not saying the same. No because if you got the ability to select better team, you will usually get a better record,. It's just how we look at it I suppose.
I do think Deans was a good coach, with perhaps not so good selection abilities, and perhaps early on not maybe the man manager he could of been. And that I got from listening to Tana Umaga and comments from players including books I have read, and seems there was plenty of relief from AB players when he and Mitchell were no longer AB coaches after 2003 WC . Like I say I not dissing Deans either, and no doubt has learnt from mistakes, but he didn't really make the most of Wallabies in 2011 WC that maybe he could of. But like with any coach at that level, I just surmising, as I not in inner sanctum. -
@Dan54 Fair enough.
I pretty much agree that if you're not in the room it's pretty hard to tell who's a good coach. And different players - and groups - respond differently to different styles.
What I would say about Fozzie as head coach is that he's never consistently displayed the magic. His teams are up and down and his ABs have thrown in a few shockers when there has been no excuse for it.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Ngani would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
Wow. Imagine how good Charlie Ngatai would have been under this saviour!
What is it that people see as Razor's best attribute? Is it the water to wine thing or the water walking?
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a bit disrespectful towards Ngani's abilities don't you think?
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Ngani would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
Wow. Imagine how good Charlie Ngatai would have been under this saviour!
What is it that people see as Razor's best attribute? Is it the water to wine thing or the water walking?
Levitation.
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@Windows97 wouldnt say sparkling, we were under the pump (conceding early points in all 3 tests) and was that loose pass that Reece nabbed and we score 80m down field, huge turning point where we looked good from there.
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@Windows97 said in Foster:
@Chris-B Like the sparkling performance in Ireland 1 to be followed by the nightmares of 2 and 3...
Argentina 1 is the one that I particularly have in mind for this year, but every time we think we've turned the corner...
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@Crucial from what I gather, it is more his team management and preparation that sets him apart rather than coaching, which is why he surrounds himself with good people.
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@Dan54 Fair enough.
I pretty much agree that if you're not in the room it's pretty hard to tell who's a good coach. And different players - and groups - respond differently to different styles.
What I would say about Fozzie as head coach is that he's never consistently displayed the magic. His teams are up and down and his ABs have thrown in a few shockers when there has been no excuse for it.
Yep I not sure at all, but I myst admit when Sam W (who supposedly was the main driver) came out in support, I have to take some notice. Noone will convince he and Smith and co woere doing it so stay in team as no way would Razor do anything but maybe even make Sam captain. I just not sure, as I keep saying my choice has always been someone who didn't apply, Jamie Joseph, but I know no more than anyone else.
