Foster, Robertson etc
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@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Yep like I said there was no way I was dissing Rennie or Smith, just saying comparing the teams from 2011 and 12 was like comparing apples and oranges, one was basically an area team, the other was a wider selection catergory. You can't compare what coaches of each team did with what they had is all. I will say I was always a Rennie fan, even if really looks to be struggling as a test coach.
If you can't compare the results of guys who coached a team immediately after another coach, then you can't really compare any coaches at all.
However, you're prepared to conclude that Deans was a poor test coach. Compared to what? He had a very poor record against the ABs, but he had access to no AB players and just a bunch of Aussies. He had a winning record against England, France, Ireland, Wales and South
Africa.Compared to what they've had since, he might well have been a genius!
No I was saying the team of 2012 was not the team as 2011, simply because it could be selected from a wider base, it's why test teams are better than super teams, wider pool of players to pick from. How have coaches gone head to head with teams they coach, is that not saying the same. No because if you got the ability to select better team, you will usually get a better record,. It's just how we look at it I suppose.
I do think Deans was a good coach, with perhaps not so good selection abilities, and perhaps early on not maybe the man manager he could of been. And that I got from listening to Tana Umaga and comments from players including books I have read, and seems there was plenty of relief from AB players when he and Mitchell were no longer AB coaches after 2003 WC . Like I say I not dissing Deans either, and no doubt has learnt from mistakes, but he didn't really make the most of Wallabies in 2011 WC that maybe he could of. But like with any coach at that level, I just surmising, as I not in inner sanctum. -
@Dan54 Fair enough.
I pretty much agree that if you're not in the room it's pretty hard to tell who's a good coach. And different players - and groups - respond differently to different styles.
What I would say about Fozzie as head coach is that he's never consistently displayed the magic. His teams are up and down and his ABs have thrown in a few shockers when there has been no excuse for it.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Ngani would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
Wow. Imagine how good Charlie Ngatai would have been under this saviour!
What is it that people see as Razor's best attribute? Is it the water to wine thing or the water walking?
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a bit disrespectful towards Ngani's abilities don't you think?
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Ngani would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
Wow. Imagine how good Charlie Ngatai would have been under this saviour!
What is it that people see as Razor's best attribute? Is it the water to wine thing or the water walking?
Levitation.
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@Windows97 wouldnt say sparkling, we were under the pump (conceding early points in all 3 tests) and was that loose pass that Reece nabbed and we score 80m down field, huge turning point where we looked good from there.
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@Windows97 said in Foster:
@Chris-B Like the sparkling performance in Ireland 1 to be followed by the nightmares of 2 and 3...
Argentina 1 is the one that I particularly have in mind for this year, but every time we think we've turned the corner...
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@Crucial from what I gather, it is more his team management and preparation that sets him apart rather than coaching, which is why he surrounds himself with good people.
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@Dan54 Fair enough.
I pretty much agree that if you're not in the room it's pretty hard to tell who's a good coach. And different players - and groups - respond differently to different styles.
What I would say about Fozzie as head coach is that he's never consistently displayed the magic. His teams are up and down and his ABs have thrown in a few shockers when there has been no excuse for it.
Yep I not sure at all, but I myst admit when Sam W (who supposedly was the main driver) came out in support, I have to take some notice. Noone will convince he and Smith and co woere doing it so stay in team as no way would Razor do anything but maybe even make Sam captain. I just not sure, as I keep saying my choice has always been someone who didn't apply, Jamie Joseph, but I know no more than anyone else.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Crucial from what I gather, it is more his team management and preparation that sets him apart rather than coaching, which is why he surrounds himself with good people.
Yep seems some say how he has motivational ideas , I am pissed if we think the ABs need motivating to put on the Black jersey. And maybe a skill that is used so well at super level. Mind you that's guess work too, just what I have heard players say, he good at having a themem for a campaign, ie one year he used the Ali/Frazier Thriller in Manilla at their focus point.
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@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Crucial from what I gather, it is more his team management and preparation that sets him apart rather than coaching, which is why he surrounds himself with good people.
That's my understanding as well. He explained in an interview this year how he had plotted out the players/games to get to the finals and had his assistant gathering data and plotting how they were going to play Auckland well before that.
He is a very good planner of how to win a long competition.
Players say that he has a very good man management style as well but I don't think I have ever really heard people singing his praises on individual development (except his fanbois on forums). He develops environment that some players thrive in and others don't.
We have seen quite a few promising players not kick on at the Crusaders so that shows that his style also isn't universal.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
That's kinda like saying the Irish team that last visited here was shit because they lost to the NZ Maori in a midweek game.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
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@antipodean said in Foster:
@MiketheSnow why does Llanelli bang on about this like the All Blacks had never lost a midweek fixture before?
That 72 tour was a pretty average team.
Because our national team couldn’t do it in our heyday with all our stars
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