Foster, Robertson etc
-
If I can work out how and have the time, energy and sobriety I'll split the 70s Bad Old Days from the whinging about Fozzie. It's kinda fascinating to remember how bad we were.
And still had Aura.
-
-
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster:
It is hard to pinpoint the problem with this current group. The talent is there, they try their hearts out, they have good support, but what happens on the pitch is just not good enough or ruthless enough to get the job done IMO (consistently win against top-tier opposition and win the World Cup). Here is my theory and I think Carlos sees it as well. It seems that the ABs camp has become too comfortable and isolated. They are the "AB family". That absolute ruthlessness and desire to get that 1 or 2 % to get over the line is not there anymore. If they don't play well, and there are few consequences. Once upon a time one bad performance and you were out of the team, possibly forever. Now we have players still there that can be terribly off the pace (Sam Cane is the classic example). Go away to Japan, no worries, you are automatically back despite not showing you are better than others. They are consistently answering their critics by saying they only worry about what is happening inside the camp, etc, etc. Not all bad things of course, maybe it is even a sign of the times and I am a grump, but just maybe it has led to inadequate performances.
Hence I really think a "clean out" is what the ABs have needed since 2019.Could it be our key players in key positions aren't quite as good as before and the combos are still not gelling?
We don't have great depth at props but we do have a new world-class hooker, the locks are experienced, the loosies should be great but still don't combine well, our 10s have plenty of experience but don't look dominant, our wings are at least ok, the midfield might be up and down but the players still have potential (and some have enough experience), and we should have enough fullbacks.
What really worries me, about 5(?) years ago a fringe player would leave an AB camp and return to the comp a better player. That is not so evident now, and our tactical ability and capacity to change tactics and control play seems to be getting worse and worse IMHO. Who has improved since breaking into the ABs, Samisoni, George, perhaps?
And well-organized sides seem to have our number. Are we really that tactically transparent? Joseph said as much. Carlos said it. We have enough experienced playmakers in the team, but this seems to be a continual problem.
-
@nostrildamus said in Foster:
Who has improved since breaking into the ABs, Samisoni, George, perhaps?
I would think the list is a lot longer than that. Ethan, Scott, Jordie, Reece,...blah
-
@nostrildamus said in Foster:
Who has improved since breaking into the ABs, Samisoni, George, perhaps?
I would think the list is a lot longer than that. Ethan, Scott, Jordie, Reece,...blah
Not sure about Ethan.
Scott? Maybe, but he was on an improvement trail at the Crusaders.
Jordie? At FB? Seems to have been a little better a few years ago.
Reece? Not sure about that.
I don't remember anyone of them once leaving AB camp clearly playing better at their role. Hard to prove, of course. -
@nostrildamus they are all much better international players than they were 3-4 years ago. I don't know how that can even be debated.
-
@nostrildamus they are all much better international players than they were 3-4 years ago. I don't know how that can even be debated.
Not my point. The point here is whether being in ABs training was the factor. I'll leave it there.
-
@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
Where?
Ask any Welshman. There were all there. Apparently.
-
@kiwi_expat I still don't think he was a very good test coach, as I said his selecting was his problem.'He has been very successful at lower level though, and seems to be a very good coach at that level . There is nothing wrong with that, he has strengths that maybe don't really go with test rugby.
Hell has Rennie coached Wallabies to 30 tests already? -
I think this whole thing of what makes a good coach is very difficult to judge from the outside, particularly just going off results when there are lots of contributing factors,
and maybe only those on the inside really know,
The mcaw scenario of endorsing Ted over Deans comes to mind, when most of us were probably very surprised by that, not so much later in hindsight after the 11 WC win ,
but remembering back to when it actually happened,just after the 07 worst ever WC result and Deans was applying for the Job
-
@Victor-Meldrew we do a much better haka now though
-
@MiketheSnow why does Llanelli bang on about this like the All Blacks had never lost a midweek fixture before?
That 72 tour was a pretty average team.
-
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Yep like I said there was no way I was dissing Rennie or Smith, just saying comparing the teams from 2011 and 12 was like comparing apples and oranges, one was basically an area team, the other was a wider selection catergory. You can't compare what coaches of each team did with what they had is all. I will say I was always a Rennie fan, even if really looks to be struggling as a test coach.
If you can't compare the results of guys who coached a team immediately after another coach, then you can't really compare any coaches at all.
However, you're prepared to conclude that Deans was a poor test coach. Compared to what? He had a very poor record against the ABs, but he had access to no AB players and just a bunch of Aussies. He had a winning record against England, France, Ireland, Wales and South
Africa.Compared to what they've had since, he might well have been a genius!
-
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Pfft, don't you dare mofo, the Magpies made him, we sent him to the Chiefs fully formed in 2012.
He was a bad miss by the Crusaders though, they opted for Central Hawkes Bay's Dom Bird instead (and turned him into a pussy in the process), and now BBBR is one of the AB greats and lives in Central Hawkes Bay.
So, Big Brodie was just sitting there - almost fully formed and available to Foster (since no-one else had picked him up) in 2011?
My God!!! Fozzie's even worse than I'd thought!!!
-
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Pfft, don't you dare mofo, the Magpies made him, we sent him to the Chiefs fully formed in 2012.
He was a bad miss by the Crusaders though, they opted for Central Hawkes Bay's Dom Bird instead (and turned him into a pussy in the process), and now BBBR is one of the AB greats and lives in Central Hawkes Bay.
So, Big Brodie was just sitting there - almost fully formed and available to Foster (since no-one else had picked him up) in 2011?
My God!!! Fozzie's even worse than I'd thought!!!
Well, his "home" franchise was the Canes, so there's really no surprise why he wasn't noticed that year. Plus, I said we sent him fully formed to the Chiefs in 2012, we needed a couple of years to convert him from a fat Cantab into a studly Magpie.
-
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Yep like I said there was no way I was dissing Rennie or Smith, just saying comparing the teams from 2011 and 12 was like comparing apples and oranges, one was basically an area team, the other was a wider selection catergory. You can't compare what coaches of each team did with what they had is all. I will say I was always a Rennie fan, even if really looks to be struggling as a test coach.
If you can't compare the results of guys who coached a team immediately after another coach, then you can't really compare any coaches at all.
However, you're prepared to conclude that Deans was a poor test coach. Compared to what? He had a very poor record against the ABs, but he had access to no AB players and just a bunch of Aussies. He had a winning record against England, France, Ireland, Wales and South
Africa.Compared to what they've had since, he might well have been a genius!
No I was saying the team of 2012 was not the team as 2011, simply because it could be selected from a wider base, it's why test teams are better than super teams, wider pool of players to pick from. How have coaches gone head to head with teams they coach, is that not saying the same. No because if you got the ability to select better team, you will usually get a better record,. It's just how we look at it I suppose.
I do think Deans was a good coach, with perhaps not so good selection abilities, and perhaps early on not maybe the man manager he could of been. And that I got from listening to Tana Umaga and comments from players including books I have read, and seems there was plenty of relief from AB players when he and Mitchell were no longer AB coaches after 2003 WC . Like I say I not dissing Deans either, and no doubt has learnt from mistakes, but he didn't really make the most of Wallabies in 2011 WC that maybe he could of. But like with any coach at that level, I just surmising, as I not in inner sanctum. -
@Dan54 Fair enough.
I pretty much agree that if you're not in the room it's pretty hard to tell who's a good coach. And different players - and groups - respond differently to different styles.
What I would say about Fozzie as head coach is that he's never consistently displayed the magic. His teams are up and down and his ABs have thrown in a few shockers when there has been no excuse for it.
-
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
