Foster, Robertson etc
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 although many of the issues we are seeing now started in the final couple of years under hansens watch.
If Fozzie was an astute coach he'd have picked up the issues and looked at ways to rectify them to make his job as head coach easier, instead, he was hamstrung by a poor recruitment process, and allowed these issues that seemed clear to most rugby fans in NZ to fester and grow to the point we are at now.
Watching the npc there are plenty of forwards running about who display the skills required, it's about nurturing these guys and those around them so it again, and allow them to continue at the highest level, rather than picking guys based on thier scrummaging ability, which was never really truly world class anyway.
100% spot on.
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@Chester-Draws said in Foster:
Although, as I said earlier, I think Hansen has to share some of the blame. He talked him up, based on f-all.
As did the AB's themselves - inc. veterans like Savea, Whitelock & Mo'unga who have worked under 2 or 3 head coaches. Not sure what your point is other than to keep going back over old ground again and again.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
other than to keep going back over old ground again and again.
Long time lurker? Welcome to the fern.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 although many of the issues we are seeing now started in the final couple of years under hansens watch.
If Fozzie was an astute coach he'd have picked up the issues and looked at ways to rectify them to make his job as head coach easier, instead, he was hamstrung by a poor recruitment process, and allowed these issues that seemed clear to most rugby fans in NZ to fester and grow to the point we are at now.
I think that the strongest 'theme' from Hansen's latter years and Fosters ones are that they both think that the ABs only require tweaks to solve the rush D and combating the bigger collision forwards.
Foster did say at the start of his tenure that he had identified where some changes were needed. It has just taken too long to implement them.
As for personnel, I have sympathy. Covid came at a really bad time for the ABs in that evolving/identifying players was constrained and even those that were there had to deal with many disruptions.
I don't think that we were in a great position anyway so extra difficult to make changes when there's so much else going on.
I'm hoping that luck and circumstance may have righted the ship a bit as the punts that were taken when backed deep into a corner look like they may have shown the way forward.
The more in the shit you get, sometimes you think less risk is possible until you see that the only way is to go all in and cross your fingers. -
and new players all ready to be put into place.
That would have created some HR issues I'd assume as the amount of compensation a player gets is tied to them making the AB squad. New boss comes in and ditches some of the players mid competition. Maybe at the least NZ rugby would have to pay out any players dumped mid RC the full rate?
I seem to recall from years gone by, something like they get at 3xtra 7 grand a week while in camp. On top of normal contract money. So if you're dropped you obviously lose that but are still contracted, so players movement would not cost.
When I used players I meant new players as in 'new players as in the game of coaching!' Very bad choice of word and phrase!
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 although many of the issues we are seeing now started in the final couple of years under hansens watch.
If Fozzie was an astute coach he'd have picked up the issues and looked at ways to rectify them to make his job as head coach easier, instead, he was hamstrung by a poor recruitment process, and allowed these issues that seemed clear to most rugby fans in NZ to fester and grow to the point we are at now.
I think that the strongest 'theme' from Hansen's latter years and Fosters ones are that they both think that the ABs only require tweaks to solve the rush D and combating the bigger collision forwards.
For the life of me I can't see why they complicate it. Just play more direct as they did at Ellis Park.
It's like the stupid fancy lineout moves where there is so much movement it invariably ends up missing the jumper. -
The plus side of the whole saga is that we've probably got a significantly increased chance of winning RWC2023, than we had 6 weeks ago.
Foster, Schmidt, Ryan possibly gives us a legitimate chance, where Foster, Plumtree, Mooar only looked like potential burglars to me. Fozzie has also had his 2007 Henry moment, without having to lose a World Cup to experience it.
Since 2015, I haven't really had the impression that the AB coaches are working in the "leave absolutely no stone unturned in the quest to win" mode that we had from 2007-2011.
Fozzie's fright may get them back in that mode for 2023. And he hopefully has some guys on his staff who have the technical ability to win it rather than fluke it.
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The plus side of the whole saga is that we've probably got a significantly increased chance of winning RWC2023, than we had 6 weeks ago.
Foster, Schmidt, Ryan possibly gives us a legitimate chance, where Foster, Plumtree, Mooar only looked like potential burglars to me. Fozzie has also had his 2007 Henry moment, without having to lose a World Cup to experience it.
Since 2015, I haven't really had the impression that the AB coaches are working in the "leave absolutely no stone unturned in the quest to win" mode that we had from 2007-2011.
Fozzie's fright may get them back in that mode for 2023. And he hopefully has some guys on his staff who have the technical ability to win it rather than fluke it.
I had hoped he had his "henry 2007 moment" in 2019, he may not have been the boss but he was there and continuity and having already learnt lessons was kind of his soap box for the job
i hope you're right though
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
Not sure we haven't been poor,I think we have over the last 2 1/2 years.
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
They are bloody good teams but we have also been very poor. I have never seen an All Black team so clueless and not even in the fight before Ellis Park.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster:
@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
They are bloody good teams but we have also been very poor. I have never seen an All Black team so clueless and not even in the fight before Ellis Park.
I had. The 3rd Irish test.
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
Well, I certainly haven't said anything about us being favourites.
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
Not sure we haven't been poor,I think we have over the last 2 1/2 years.
Yep mate, but I seem to recall ebverytime we go through a slump of any kind, we tend to say it's us, and perhaps don't look at how good other teams are. Not sure if you remember but basically the French team that is playing now easily won the U20 comp in 2016 or 17, and we were knocked out at Qfs or something, can't remember the year, think it was Razor's second year as coach? Not saying we haven't been well off pace, but you look at super rugby last few years very very ordinary I think, but even that I not sure about as it been so f***ed up with covid etc. But you probably pretty right, we need some real good world class players coming through pretty badly.
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
Well, I certainly haven't said anything about us being favourites.
Fair enough to mate. we would hope to be in top 4 at most, and once we make knock out stages , it can be a bit of a lottery.
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
Not sure we haven't been poor,I think we have over the last 2 1/2 years.
Yep mate, but I seem to recall ebverytime we go through a slump of any kind, we tend to say it's us, and perhaps don't look at how good other teams are. Not sure if you remember but basically the French team that is playing now easily won the U20 comp in 2016 or 17, and we were knocked out at Qfs or something, can't remember the year, think it was Razor's second year as coach? Not saying we haven't been well off pace, but you look at super rugby last few years very very ordinary I think, but even that I not sure about as it been so f***ed up with covid etc. But you probably pretty right, we need some real good world class players coming through pretty badly.
That is true , but it is the way we lost,
Tactically we’re we’re poor and clueless,some bad selections, not a decent game plan anywhere,
We could have been better with a real plan of how we were going to play and combat the rush defence etc we were tactically poor.
We would have been better against France and Ireland with some more thought out coaching strategies. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Chester-Draws said in Foster:
Although, as I said earlier, I think Hansen has to share some of the blame. He talked him up, based on f-all.
As did the AB's themselves - inc. veterans like Savea, Whitelock & Mo'unga who have worked under 2 or 3 head coaches. Not sure what your point is other than to keep going back over old ground again and again.
Well, if moving on to new ground is just wishful thinking, which I suspect it is, then it's not an improvement. Until we see the selections and tactics for the next four games we have no idea if things are better.
Players will like or dislike a coach based on all sorts of reasons, but whatever they think they are hardly going to say the truth publicly. We won't know how they really feel until they retire and write their books.
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@Kiwiwomble I don't think the NZ rugby public was particularly pissed off at not winning in 2019 - not in the "it's been 20 fucking years and now it's four more!!!" mode, anyway. I don't think Hansen and Fozzie would have wondered whether they could live in NZ after the loss.
Significantly more vitriol this year, I think.
Fozzie has now had his arse kicked and will know an equally severe one is coming if he falls short next year.
I actually don't think we have been more underdogs going into a WC. Anyone who is watching would realise that France would have to be favourites, followed by Irish. Really believe that not sure why we keep assuming we should be favouritesto win the thing. We are not behind France and Ireland because we are poor, but because they are bloody good teams in my opinion.
Not sure we haven't been poor,I think we have over the last 2 1/2 years.
Yep mate, but I seem to recall ebverytime we go through a slump of any kind, we tend to say it's us, and perhaps don't look at how good other teams are. Not sure if you remember but basically the French team that is playing now easily won the U20 comp in 2016 or 17, and we were knocked out at Qfs or something, can't remember the year, think it was Razor's second year as coach? Not saying we haven't been well off pace, but you look at super rugby last few years very very ordinary I think, but even that I not sure about as it been so f***ed up with covid etc. But you probably pretty right, we need some real good world class players coming through pretty badly.
The French U20 team, of which several players are now in their senior squad, beat our NZ U20 in the JWC semi-finals in 2018. France won the last two (pre-covid) tournaments (2018 and 2019). Several of those players already played in the Top 14 prior to playing in that U20 team.
Edited to add that of that 2018 NZ U20 team, Sotutu, Clarke and L Fainga'anuku are now All Blacks. (Will Jordan wasn't in that NZ U20 squad due to injury). Other players who (I think) have the potential to become All Blacks are Bailyn Sullivan and Devan Flanders.
