Foster, Robertson etc
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though.
It has though and that's the reality.
If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
Selective use of statistics there. E.g. Foster's overall win ratio in 2021 from 15 Tests (losses to Ireland and France and a narrow loss to SA) was 80%.
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins.
No we don't and haven't had for some time. Look at the U20 results and the quality of players in France for example. We don't have all these wonder players you think we have. If we did, the Whitelock & Retallick replacements would be oven-ready.
There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
Magic solution which won't solve the deeper issues.
The reality is, Foz loses 2 in Africa he's out. Selective use of stats? We beat the Wobs, Fiji, the USA and Italy and scraped one against SA.
Bit selective. You missed out beating Wales (who beat SA in SA) and a last minute, 2 point loss to SA.
We do have the best ball players. If we didn't, as dominant as teams have been against us scorelines are still relatively close with a chance of being in the game.
Bollocks. We have struggled in loads of positions in the last few years. We've been looking for a quality 6 for 5 years, the Lock cupboard is bare and our midfield has been all over the place for even longer.
So your solution is to stay with Foster after the drivel we've seen and expect any different?
And yet one post up I take the time to write: "I agree, and I've argued that Foster should be replaced." .......
The fact is, with Foster in the coaching setup, this team has been on a downward trend since the end of 2016 and a likley QF exit next year.
Facile to say the AB's problems are all down to him.
Exactly. SA aren't up to snuff and we squeaked passed them.
You're saying it's not down to one man. What the phuck has Foster been doing in the last 6 years and 3 as head coach? Isn't it his primary role to get his players working cohesively as a unit? We've struggled because the won't settle on a side, not because the players ball skills are shit.
I pretty much stopped reading when you said Sth Africa aren't up to snuff. Check their recent record & rugby history.
But for the record, no, I don't think all the problems in NZ rugby since 2015 are down to one man, Foster, and I don't believe NZ rugby players are more skilled than anyone else in the world.
I stopped reading "I".
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@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though.
It has though and that's the reality.
If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
Selective use of statistics there. E.g. Foster's overall win ratio in 2021 from 15 Tests (losses to Ireland and France and a narrow loss to SA) was 80%.
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins.
No we don't and haven't had for some time. Look at the U20 results and the quality of players in France for example. We don't have all these wonder players you think we have. If we did, the Whitelock & Retallick replacements would be oven-ready.
There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
Magic solution which won't solve the deeper issues.
The reality is, Foz loses 2 in Africa he's out. Selective use of stats? We beat the Wobs, Fiji, the USA and Italy and scraped one against SA.
Bit selective. You missed out beating Wales (who beat SA in SA) and a last minute, 2 point loss to SA.
We do have the best ball players. If we didn't, as dominant as teams have been against us scorelines are still relatively close with a chance of being in the game.
Bollocks. We have struggled in loads of positions in the last few years. We've been looking for a quality 6 for 5 years, the Lock cupboard is bare and our midfield has been all over the place for even longer.
So your solution is to stay with Foster after the drivel we've seen and expect any different?
And yet one post up I take the time to write: "I agree, and I've argued that Foster should be replaced." .......
The fact is, with Foster in the coaching setup, this team has been on a downward trend since the end of 2016 and a likley QF exit next year.
Facile to say the AB's problems are all down to him.
Exactly. SA aren't up to snuff and we squeaked passed them.
You're saying it's not down to one man. What the phuck has Foster been doing in the last 6 years and 3 as head coach? Isn't it his primary role to get his players working cohesively as a unit? We've struggled because the won't settle on a side, not because the players ball skills are shit.
I pretty much stopped reading when you said Sth Africa aren't up to snuff. Check their recent record & rugby history.
But for the record, no, I don't think all the problems in NZ rugby since 2015 are down to one man, Foster, and I don't believe NZ rugby players are more skilled than anyone else in the world.
I stopped reading "I".
Some years ago at a guess.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
But feel free to call anyone who questions the absolutist belief that Robertson is 100% guaranteed to solve all the problems, with zero risk of failure, insane if it make you feel better.
Straw man argument. No one is saying that.
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Jeff has a point but this is Robertson just being up front. But I personally don't think it put NZR under any more pressure
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@Winger said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Jeff has a point but this is Robertson just being up front. But I personally don't think it put NZR under any more pressure
Yeah I disagree with Jeff as well. Razor is perfectly entitled to talk his aspirations and potential job opportunities.
It's just coaching, they aren't curing cancer. If there was a little bit more plain talk instead of all this corporate bullshit, perhaps we would be performing better and making better hiring choices.
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@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
But feel free to call anyone who questions the absolutist belief that Robertson is 100% guaranteed to solve all the problems, with zero risk of failure, insane if it make you feel better.
Straw man argument. No one is saying that.
I wasn't making an argument. I was offering advice.
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I'm not arguing I'm just offering advice.
It is best to stick with Foster because to replace him now with another coach, who has a superior win record, is just inviting chaos. Unless we have criteria that would have kept out Foster, even though we didn't choose him and any criteria the NZR has for him is written in a foam contract with marker pens, locked away in Hansen's jockstrap.
No, far better to leave him there, with his invisible contract KPI and let the NZR in their infinite wisdom steal more of Razor's team to give to the guy who has just been strategic by firing half of his coaching team.
Best to rely on learnings. Like getting Shannon back and hey Jordie can still play on the wing with his new haircut. Ennor is proven class at midfield. And it's time to give Taylor a run at 6-everyone else has.
So why not let Razor and the others gain international experience by taking all their learnings to overseas teams.
Who, let us face it, already know the ABs gameplan inside and out so we might as well send all our future potential AB coaches overseas so they can share their secrets with our competitors.
So that is my advice. Leave the coach with one of the worse recent coaching records in control (if you can call it control) because there is a chance (as big as a shrew's penis) that we will get a worse coach if we actually want a coach who will win a series or two against any team higher than Tonga C or Australia B (if they choose another 10 straight out of high school). And let the other NZ coaches bugger off overseas because they dare to lead winning teams. -
I was trying to show I was referring to your avatar and not you as a person. Clearly didn’t do it very well!
You have contributed a lot to the thread and offered a different point of view than most who are ready to burn Foster at the stake.
You quite rightly state their are lots of issues in Nz rugby and a new coach won’t fix those or necessarily did all the problems with the All Blacks.
I might be paraphrasing but You argued that because foster has lost 2 games in a row then that should be the years stuck for the new coach. Which is seriously flawed.
Foster has underwhelmed as AB coach since his first test match in charge which he was lucky to draw against an Oz side that selected its players from the teams that were routinely put to the sword by Nz super teams. But he was lucky to come out with a draw.
Unfortunately, he has dragged the ABs down to his level and we are regressing under his leadership - nothing we are doing can be considered world class at international level.
We need to take the ABs in isolation and look to fix the problems of that squad. Arguing that we should stick with the status who as we don’t know that the next guy will be better is just accepting mediocrity and not recognising that we have better talent available to lead the squad.
Taking Fozzie out of the equation should have happened by now imo. Hell, even letting the senior players run the team for a couple of weeks would probably lead to an improvement
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@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Taking Fozzie out of the equation should have happened by now imo. Hell, even letting the senior players run the team for a couple of weeks would probably lead to an improvement
Our best performance of the year so far (not saying much) was the first test win when Fozzie was in isolation.....
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yup I know.
actually I do think it is saying a lot.
Ireland have been lauded as a very good rugby side - which they are no doubt about it.
But because of the 2 losses and the nature of the losses, we have forgotten what we did in that first test. we scored 6 tries and beat them by 20 points.
Yes, Ireland had lots of possession that game and did some good things but were well beaten in that first match.
It does show that there is a team there but they are not being utilised properly.
Maybe i am a little too optimistic (which is ironic because the only time I have been on the fern recently is to vent!!) but I do believe that there can be a lot of improvements in this AB squad (on and off the field) with bteer leadership.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you don't have any discernible game plan or pattern of defense, it is nigh on impossible for the players like RI to play without the blunders they are making.
Put Havili into the Crusaders pattern and he goes great guns, put RI into the Blues patterns and he is the stand-out center in SR by a country mile. Ireland loses a player and the next cab off the rank steps in without a misstep. Remember the rotation policy of the Henry era?
The ABs are an organizational mess at the moment. The players don't know if they are Arthur or Martha.It's not X-factor the All Blacks are desperate for in the midfield
By Nick Bishop
It seems to have been a presiding problem ever since 2015, triggered by the simultaneous retirement from international rugby of the greatest midfield axis in the professional game.
Dan Carter, Ma’a Nonu and Conrad Smith decided to hang up their boots for good after winning back-to-back World Cups, and the synergy at five-eighths and centre in the All Blacks has never been satisfactorily replaced. Left foot (Carter), right foot (Nonu); the buffalo (Nonu) and the viper (Smith). Whichever way you looked at it, that combination of power and finesse in both the kicking and running games was hard to match, let alone surpass.
For the last six years, New Zealand have increasingly reached towards ‘X-factor’, rather than players steeped in the technical and physical demands of play at numbers 10, 12 and 13, to provide the quality in the spots DC, ‘Rock’ and ‘the Snake’ vacated.
They converted a player (Beauden Barrett) who started his international career as a full-back or utility into a number 10, they unearthed an outstanding left wing against the 2017 British & Irish Lions (Rieko Ioane) and recast him as a centre, and they moved a man who had played the vast majority of his rugby at fullback (David Havili) into second five-eighth.
The All Blacks are still searching for a combination to replace Conrad Smith and Ma’a Nonu.That is the combination with which New Zealand finished the recent series against Ireland, and it would probably have been the choice at the very start, had Havili not been ruled out of the first Test at Eden Park with Covid-19:
“Like everyone I was just couch-ridden for a few days and lost a wee bit of taste, so I just sat on the couch and caught up on a bit of Netflix,” Havili said following his stint on the sidelines. “Once you start feeling well you start feeling a little bit bored, and that was the main thing for me, the boredom of staying at home.”
“To be able to do that was really good and now I’m feeling fresh and ready to go. You’re on your toes watching pretty intensely but it was actually pretty good to just have a bit of time at home with my partner and just chill out. I’ve come back now and I’m ready to go.”
The search for X-factor did not end with the selection of Barrett, Havili and Ioane as the midfield starters, it extended to the bench, where a League convert in Roger Tuivasa-Sheck was named as the centre replacement for the final Test after only 11 games of professional rugby for the Blues in Super Rugby Pacific 2022.
He’s going to bring a lot of energy and X-factor when he gets to take the field. David Havili on Roger Tuivasa-SheckHavili dutifully repeated the mantra which seems to be a password for recent All Black coaches:
“He’s going to bring a lot of energy and X-factor when he gets to take the field and I think speaking to him over the last couple of days he’s just super-excited, man.
“It’s a pretty special moment for him and his family and I know he wants to go out there and just get stuck in.
“He’s brought a different skill-set to the midfield and it’s been cool to understand how he sees our game. He’s fit in perfectly and I’m looking forward to seeing what he can do when he gets on the field.
“Like I said, just the X-factor he brings.”
Ireland did the opposite with their selections, picking a 37-year old outside-half in Johnny Sexton, and supporting him with two out-and-out centres in the shape of Bundee Aki and Robbie Henshaw. The amount of time any of those three have spent playing anywhere other than their specialist positions can be counted in minutes.
If it were a boxing contest, it would have been stopped well before the clang of the final bell. Here are the raw stats on offence:
The offensive stats look good for the men in green but, if anything, the comparison on defence made even more difference at the Cake Tin. The contrast in urgency, communication and clear-headed decision-making was stark, from beginning to end.
It’s often easiest to gauge the quality of involvement and impact for a centre partnership in defence, when they are split to either side of the field. This usually occurs after the first three or four phases from set-piece, or more quickly from relatively unstructured situations like kick or turnover returns.
Let’s take a look at some scenarios where Havili and Ioane were split to either side by the Irish attack, and the quality of their response thereafter. We didn’t have to wait long at Wellington, because the first example occurred only 30 seconds into the game.
It’s a straightforward kick return into centre-field, with Aki absorbing Rieko Ioane at the second tackle. That creates the scenario that Ireland want, with Havili defending the opposite side of the field next to the wing out on the right, Will Jordan:
There is an evident disconnect in the attitudes of Havili and Jordan when the ball reaches Ireland fullback Hugo Keenan at second receiver. Havili is backing off and looking to jockey towards touch, Jordan is caught in no man’s land trying to have his cake and eat it – looking in at Keenan while his body is sliding away from him.
If this picture was presented to France defence coach Shaun Edwards, there is little doubt he would want to see Havili higher upfield, and a much fuller commitment from Jordan, squaring up on Keenan and Robbie Henshaw. That is what he would expect from his own right wing, Damian Penaud. As it is, both defenders effectively take themselves out of the play and become non-factors.
Ireland’s second try of the game was a variation on the same theme. The Irish first shifted the ball across the full width of the field from an attacking right-side lineout, condensing the New Zealand 12 and 13 around the ball at the first tackle. At the end of the second phase infield they are split, with Havili running back to the left outside his forwards, and Rieko attending the short-side:
The worry from a Kiwi viewpoint is the lack of animation and communication from Ioane, when faced by the entire Ireland back three of Mack Hansen, Keenan and James Lowe in a straight three-on-two situation. He could be calling the spare man (Aaron Smith behind the ruck) over to fill in at guard, but instead he is passively ball-watching.
Both Jordan and Ioane are circumnavigated in ten metres of space, without a hand being laid on the try-scorer (Keenan) until it is far too late.
A similar scenario arose in the build-up to Ireland’s third try of the game, from a midfield scrum on the New Zealand 22:
Ireland split three backs to either side of the scrum before the feed, and that forces the All Blacks to split Havili and Ioane to right and left from the very start.
Before the ball emerges, all of the stacked Irish backs at points 2, 3, 4 and 5 are in motion to the right, and the first two phases shift to that side with them:
At no stage during the first two phases is there any obvious sign of either of the centres, who should be organising the defence to either side of the ruck, communicating or directing traffic.
The result is predictable:
New Zealand are overnumbered on the left of the ruck (five Kiwis against three Irishmen), while Ireland have regrouped on the other side, reconnecting five of their backs behind a full forward pod – in order Sexton, Aki, Henshaw and Keenan, with James Lowe out of shot on the left. New Zealand only have Havili in line and Beauden Barrett, who is still running back into position. The communication is non-existent and the D is passive, simply waiting for events to unfold.
The contrast with the vigorous, proactive response by Robbie Henshaw on the Irish side when he and Bundee Aki had been split, was like chalk and cheese:
That is a triple involvement in just one single phase: Robbie pushes off Akira Ioane, peels away to tackle his brother, then gets up again to nail down the turnover by Josh van der Flier.
A longer sequence later in the second quarter confirmed the very different impression made by the Ireland number 13:
Henshaw is looking to be aggressive, and constantly threatening the channel between Havili and Ioane. At the critical moment, he makes a concrete decision to block any possibility of the pass being made:
Even after the tackle, he is still in the game and able to make another hit on Rieko, forcing a slow six-second delivery and ‘dead ball’ for the attack from the ruck.
He was just as decisive when the All Blacks tried to get the ball to the wing more directly via a cross-kick, only 30 seconds later
Henshaw closes on Sevu Reece immediately once he realises he cannot compete in the air, and when the ball comes back inside via a fumble on the very next phase, there can be only one player ready and waiting to pick up the loose ball.
If the All Blacks want to compete with the Springboks at the beginning of next month’s Rugby Championship, they can start with defence, and specifically the defence of their midfield backs. They do not need three ‘X-factor’ players with another one behind them on the bench, they just need three blokes willing to communicate, make definite decisions and play for one other until the very end. That would do very nicely indeed.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Personally the 2007 quarter final
That's interesting, the ABs were dominant in that game. It just the ref decided not to ref what was going on
We completely lost the plot in that game and had zero on-field management and ability to adapt. Some of the dumbest, brainless rugby an AB team has played IMO.
Richie was very young.
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I'm not arguing I'm just offering advice.
It is best to stick with Foster because to replace him now with another coach, who has a superior win record, is just inviting chaos. Unless we have criteria that would have kept out Foster, even though we didn't choose him and any criteria the NZR has for him is written in a foam contract with marker pens, locked away in Hansen's jockstrap.
No, far better to leave him there, with his invisible contract KPI and let the NZR in their infinite wisdom steal more of Razor's team to give to the guy who has just been strategic by firing half of his coaching team.
Best to rely on learnings. Like getting Shannon back and hey Jordie can still play on the wing with his new haircut. Ennor is proven class at midfield. And it's time to give Taylor a run at 6-everyone else has.
So why not let Razor and the others gain international experience by taking all their learnings to overseas teams.
Who, let us face it, already know the ABs gameplan inside and out so we might as well send all our future potential AB coaches overseas so they can share their secrets with our competitors.
So that is my advice. Leave the coach with one of the worse recent coaching records in control (if you can call it control) because there is a chance (as big as a shrew's penis) that we will get a worse coach if we actually want a coach who will win a series or two against any team higher than Tonga C or Australia B (if they choose another 10 straight out of high school). And let the other NZ coaches bugger off overseas because they dare to lead winning teams.I assume from the first line you're replying to me.
But nope, after reading your post thru 4-5 times, it still doesn't make any sense. Let's assume it was a poor attempt at irony or sarcasm from what you think my position is - so I'll try to help you as simply as I can as you seem to be struggling.
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I think Foster should have been replaced after the Irish series. I don't think he's all to blame for the majority of problems (which appear deep), but he's not the man to fix them either
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NZR needs to take a structured look at the problems in NZ rugby and work out short, medium and long term plans to resolve them. Communication would be good.
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Just as players can look class at SR level but suck at Test level (see Bridge, George) there's a risk that Coaches who look a million dollars at SR level won't at Test level.
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Changing the coach isn't a magic solution and also carries a high level of risk if it simply kicks the can of worms down the road very close to RWC 2023.
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To mitigate the risks, NZR should set a limit of, say, 9 games to demonstrate improvement. If that ain't forthcoming then the performance of the new coaching team needs to be re-evaluated and changes made as appropriate.
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There are no simple, magic solutions which are going to fix things quickly - it's probably going to take some time.
Hope that's clear.
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@Victor-Meldrew one key thing is I don't think our players, particularly our tight 5, are better than opposites any more.
In a lot of cases we are demonstrably worse. This seems to be a real lightning rod - folk don't want to accept that we are not world leaders with players any more.
What really annoys me is our lack of rugby intelligence. This isn't a quick fix, it's partially covered by Coaching and a game plan, but it runs deep in our game. Pessimistic, but real.
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@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
yup I know.
actually I do think it is saying a lot.
Ireland have been lauded as a very good rugby side - which they are no doubt about it.
But because of the 2 losses and the nature of the losses, we have forgotten what we did in that first test. we scored 6 tries and beat them by 20 points.
Yes, Ireland had lots of possession that game and did some good things but were well beaten in that first match.
It does show that there is a team there but they are not being utilised properly.
Maybe i am a little too optimistic (which is ironic because the only time I have been on the fern recently is to vent!!) but I do believe that there can be a lot of improvements in this AB squad (on and off the field) with bteer leadership.
I'm also convinced our lack of good structure and game plan is at the core of our problems. Not bad cattle, although I am sure everyone can agree we don't have 2015 level personnel right now
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@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I might be paraphrasing but You argued that because foster has lost 2 games in a row then that should be the years stuck for the new coach. Which is seriously flawed.
Nope. I've argued that Foster should have been replaced after the Irish series. That ship has sailed - for now. Accepting the reality of that isn't the same as arguing Foster should stay.
Arguing that we should stick with the status who as we don’t know that the next guy will be better is just accepting mediocrity and not recognising that we have better talent available to lead the squad.
There's a huge difference between questioning the risk management issue with a new coach, particularly one with zero Test experience (which I have done) and arguing that Foster should stay (which I haven't)
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@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Richie was very young.
True, but the other, senior players weren't.
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@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew one key thing is I don't think our players, particularly our tight 5, are better than opposites any more.
In a lot of cases we are demonstrably worse. This seems to be a real lightning rod - folk don't want to accept that we are not world leaders with players any more.
What really annoys me is our lack of rugby intelligence. This isn't a quick fix, it's partially covered by Coaching and a game plan, but it runs deep in our game. Pessimistic, but real.
Yep.
Big parallels with NZ rugby after the '71 Lions tour. Then, too many people didn't smell the coffee, refused to accept our overall skills and player pool were poor and decided one new coach after another was the solution. We ended up with nearly a decade of below average teams before the penny dropped.
It was a shit period for an AB supporter.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew one key thing is I don't think our players, particularly our tight 5, are better than opposites any more.
In a lot of cases we are demonstrably worse. This seems to be a real lightning rod - folk don't want to accept that we are not world leaders with players any more.
What really annoys me is our lack of rugby intelligence. This isn't a quick fix, it's partially covered by Coaching and a game plan, but it runs deep in our game. Pessimistic, but real.
Yep.
Big parallels with NZ rugby after the '71 Lions tour. Then, too many people didn't smell the coffee, refused to accept our overall skills and player pool were poor and decided one new coach after another was the solution. We ended up with nearly a decade of below average teams before the penny dropped.
It was a shit period for an AB supporter.
And then the Wallabies golden era started. 😭
