All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test
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I don't know why people are so down. There could well be another COVID wave to wash over the coaches, hopefully around RWC time.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 see i dont think theyre stopping him making the right decision....theyre just presenting several options and that confuses LF...which is on him
I think the second runner is directly blocking his ability to be able to make a tackle. That's not a decision, that's an impact.
I'll add to this by saying that we should hire the very best league attack coach there is and give them free rein to use blocking runners until we get pulled up for it. The only way to get this changed is for us to take it to the nth degree. That's on our coaching team and is a big clap to the NH coaches.
ah, do you watch NRL? all Leicester has to do there is run in to the lead guy and that is getting called back for obstruction. Often league goes too far in rubbing tries out.
absolutely M4L is right here, league went down this exact path because of that concern and now mandate every pass must go to the outside shoulder every time. Now in principle this sounds ok, but if you watch league, you will now see defenders feigning they were impeded even if there was no way they would stop the movement and the play/try gets pulled up. It can work, but you still get players/coaches bending whatever rules you set.
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@bayimports said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 see i dont think theyre stopping him making the right decision....theyre just presenting several options and that confuses LF...which is on him
I think the second runner is directly blocking his ability to be able to make a tackle. That's not a decision, that's an impact.
I'll add to this by saying that we should hire the very best league attack coach there is and give them free rein to use blocking runners until we get pulled up for it. The only way to get this changed is for us to take it to the nth degree. That's on our coaching team and is a big clap to the NH coaches.
ah, do you watch NRL? all Leicester has to do there is run in to the lead guy and that is getting called back for obstruction. Often league goes too far in rubbing tries out.
absolutely M4L is right here, league went down this exact path because of that concern and now mandate every pass must go to the outside shoulder every time. Now in principle this sounds ok, but if you watch league, you will now see defenders feigning they were impeded even if there was no way they would stop the movement and the play/try gets pulled up. It can work, but you still get players/coaches bending whatever rules you set.
I don't watch much league, but isn't that better than what we have now?
It's an honest question as league (from what I have seen lately) still gets some really nice tries with heaps of bodies in motion and isn't just blocking runners all over the shop.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I definitely want to make it clear that my post wasn't about bitching about the "cheating Irish" or anything like that, this is a really clear example of Foster and co being out coached again. Poor defensive structure and our players making bad decisions when faced with a pretty standard play, albeit pushed to the limit with the ball carrier taking the pass just outside the shoulder of the second dummy runner. If that's legal, common and effective, why are we not doing it? We instead just fire the ball to a forward 10m from the ruck 5m behind the advantage line and hope for the best.
what should really piss you off is Ireland have attacked like this for a while now...
I remember way back when the Wallabies started doing this and everyone got upset. Then we started doing it and the NH got even more upset.
Now that other nations are doing it, it seems everyone's happy and I'm not upset about it (broadly speaking) if it helps unlock modern defences. And good on Ireland for being skilled enough and well coached enough to make defenders make bad decisions.
What I do have an issue with is when runners continue forward into the defensive line and obstruct defenders without being penalised.
Oh and Mcleod's inability to coach defence.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@bayimports said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 see i dont think theyre stopping him making the right decision....theyre just presenting several options and that confuses LF...which is on him
I think the second runner is directly blocking his ability to be able to make a tackle. That's not a decision, that's an impact.
I'll add to this by saying that we should hire the very best league attack coach there is and give them free rein to use blocking runners until we get pulled up for it. The only way to get this changed is for us to take it to the nth degree. That's on our coaching team and is a big clap to the NH coaches.
ah, do you watch NRL? all Leicester has to do there is run in to the lead guy and that is getting called back for obstruction. Often league goes too far in rubbing tries out.
absolutely M4L is right here, league went down this exact path because of that concern and now mandate every pass must go to the outside shoulder every time. Now in principle this sounds ok, but if you watch league, you will now see defenders feigning they were impeded even if there was no way they would stop the movement and the play/try gets pulled up. It can work, but you still get players/coaches bending whatever rules you set.
I don't watch much league, but isn't that better than what we have now?
It's an honest question as league (from what I have seen lately) still gets some really nice tries with heaps of bodies in motion and isn't just blocking runners all over the shop.
I think the point is you will always have players/coaches bending rules whatever you set. As long as you're ok with genuinely legitimate tries being ruled out then its ok. Lots of people even in the league community are 50/50 on that one. To be honest I don't mind it because you still get some great tries and the rule is clear, but I still like the flow rugby has in this area.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I definitely want to make it clear that my post wasn't about bitching about the "cheating Irish" or anything like that, this is a really clear example of Foster and co being out coached again. Poor defensive structure and our players making bad decisions when faced with a pretty standard play, albeit pushed to the limit with the ball carrier taking the pass just outside the shoulder of the second dummy runner. If that's legal, common and effective, why are we not doing it? We instead just fire the ball to a forward 10m from the ruck 5m behind the advantage line and hope for the best.
Do that half a dozen times , get nowhere , followed by a telegraphed box kick
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I definitely want to make it clear that my post wasn't about bitching about the "cheating Irish" or anything like that, this is a really clear example of Foster and co being out coached again. Poor defensive structure and our players making bad decisions when faced with a pretty standard play, albeit pushed to the limit with the ball carrier taking the pass just outside the shoulder of the second dummy runner. If that's legal, common and effective, why are we not doing it? We instead just fire the ball to a forward 10m from the ruck 5m behind the advantage line and hope for the best.
Do that half a dozen times , get nowhere , followed by a telegraphed box kick which we dont chase well
FIFY
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just to add, smith first started doing lots of box kicks when we had people like jane and smith on the wing, awesome under the high ball...now we have different wing and its like they are oblivious to the idea that it wont work as well for everyone
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@Kiwiwomble They (esp. Ireland/SA) crowd the area with players now as well as try to stick a mitt in the way just to knock the ball back to one of their own players. It has become a low percentage play.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack it goes back to the "individual moment of brilliance" game plan...they seem to just say "hey nuggie...you're good a box kicks aye?...do that"....without even bothering to look and see if "they" are good at receiving them
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@Derm-McCrum said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@reprobate Irish rugby fans are the nastiest, chippiest bunch of assholes I've met in person. I had a salesman come to my lab at a university in London and have a go at me about NZ rugby and "cheating" etc. Awful people. I cannot bear to lose to them. On the other hand, I desperately want these incompetent idiot coaches gone. Rugby is one of the very few remaining sources of national pride.
Well, that's all 7 million of us done for so. Wait till I get my hands on that salesman - he's a lot to answer for.
I met a slightly rude New Zealander once in Russia in 1981. Haven't talked with him since.
No wonder you beat us on Saturday, your potential playing pool is so far greater than little ol’ New Zealand.
In NZ it’s league, soccer/football, cricket, basketball, tiddlywinks and then rugby - all with a tiny population.
Surprised you didn’t put 50 on us.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 see i dont think theyre stopping him making the right decision....theyre just presenting several options and that confuses LF...which is on him
I think the second runner is directly blocking his ability to be able to make a tackle. That's not a decision, that's an impact.
He's not blocking him though - because he didn't even make an attempt! Maybe LF was burned by his earlier poor attempt at something, but he really should be hitting that second runner - at the very least he's going to disrupt Aki by knocking the player back into him. Interesting that this is where he should have gone balls to the wall, not on some no hope kick charge.
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@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Victor-Meldrew Well if the probability was be second fiddle to Foster that would make sense.
So it's "Earthquake in Peru. Foster to blame", then?
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@Victor-Meldrew Yes but first the NZRFU for selecting him.
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I’m not really sure what LF can do there as an isolated defender tbh. Sometimes you just have to give credit to the opposition whose phase play and quick ball has completely fractured the defensive structure. The problem is that it’s happening in front of him at speed with multiple options available, one of which is a short ball to Beirne, Irelands most dangerous line breaker. Imo there’s no illegality there as Aki takes the pass wide of the decoy runners.
As an Ireland fan it’s been a bit frustrating watching Ireland fail to develop a proper attacking structure over the years, mainly because Joe was risk averse and didn’t seem to trust Irish players skill sets, but at our best now we appear to be creating situations like this regularly and players have the freedom to try things within that structure.
It’s all predicated, though, on control of the breakdown, and, as we saw in the first test, if we don’t get that then we start making mistakes and conceding penalties and scores. I’ll be shocked therefore if the ABs don’t come out of the blocks hard on Saturday looking to put numbers into the breakdown and kill Irelands attack at source. Wayne Barnes will have a big influence here, as he refs the breakdown much differently to Peyper, who generally allows a lot of freedom to the attacking team. Barnes has developed into an excellent ref, who show consistency in his application of the laws, so it could come down to who reads him best.
A bit more longwinded than I’d hoped as a first post, but I’ve been reading this forum for a few years, not always agreeing with some of the views, but I’ve enjoyed getting a different perspective from, for the most part, informed supporters.
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@Halfout said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
A bit more longwinded than I’d hoped as a first post, but I’ve been reading this forum for a few years, not always agreeing with some of the views, but I’ve enjoyed getting a different perspective from, for the most part, informed supporters.
Thanks for subscribing to my newsletter.
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Faced with three attackers, all of whom are moving at pace, he’s on a hiding to nothing, If he’d followed Aki I have no doubt Sexton would have hit Beirne, and he’d be crucified for ignoring Beirnes obvious threat. On the arc Aki ran I don’t think he was ever going to get near him anyway regardless of how early he went, and if he committed to tackling Beirne he’s facing the possibility of a penalty or even a yellow card for taking out a support runner. The least likely result in my opinion would have been a penalty to NZ as someone above had suggested.
I’ll be honest, if the ABs or anyone ran that play against us I would have stood and applauded it, not just by getting past the midfield defence but the way in which Ireland manipulated the AB defence to create the opportunity. The difference between Ireland and the ABs is that in all probability the ABs would have scored in that situation, and that’s a huge concern for Irish fans.
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@Halfout said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Faced with three attackers, all of whom are moving at pace, he’s on a hiding to nothing, If he’d followed Aki I have no doubt Sexton would have hit Beirne, and he’d be crucified for ignoring Beirnes obvious threat. On the arc Aki ran I don’t think he was ever going to get near him anyway regardless of how early he went, and if he committed to tackling Beirne he’s facing the possibility of a penalty or even a yellow card for taking out a support runner. The least likely result in my opinion would have been a penalty to NZ as someone above had suggested.
I’ll be honest, if the ABs or anyone ran that play against us I would have stood and applauded it, not just by getting past the midfield defence but the way in which Ireland manipulated the AB defence to create the opportunity. The difference between Ireland and the ABs is that in all probability the ABs would have scored in that situation, and that’s a huge concern for Irish fans.
The real difference is that this All Blacks wouldn't have created such an opportunity deliberately.
