Why do the Crusaders win?
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@nzzp said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Sam Whitelock bested farking Victor Matlock in a RWC semifinal, so it was a layup for him to annihilate Goodhue the lesser and someone with red hair.
Whitelock was immense.
I'm still puzzled by how he did so well vs the Bokke (Matfield was a spent force) in 2015, but had the sliding doors moment against 'punchable face' Owen Farrell in 2019. Cost us the chance to get back into the game.
Yeah, we deserved to lose that game, but that was a very decisive moment.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Not the only decisive moment. There were a quite few. For me personally, my hopes went out the window as soon as scatter-brain Jodie Barrett comes on and tries to run it out of the 22 with no support. (He is a vastly different player now before anyone starts bleating).
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@Smuts said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
It’s striking how few coaches and senior management they’ve had over the last quarter century. Just three CEOs and 5 head coaches. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that all their coaches played for Canterbury/Crusaders: they understand Crusaders rugby.
Bingo - alignment of the back office right through to selection, coaching, and playing group. "Culture" is the term used, but really it is down to good planning.
Even when they've had guys who are stars and can't seem to be replaced, they don't get wholesale change like some franchises. The organisation as a whole understand that you need to ensure continuity of the team's value, and not just rely on stars. Like the ABs when they could bring in a talented youth player in a safe environment and let them grow into it. There is enough contingency to let the excellence flow.
What is most impressive to me: they don't seem to acquire many duds and then discard them. By the time you've made the bench, they know who you are and whether you're going to make it.
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@NTA said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Even when they've had guys who are stars and can't seem to be replaced, they don't get wholesale change like some franchises. The organisation as a whole sunderstand that you need to ensure continuity of the team's value, and not just rely on stars. Like the ABs when they could bring in a talented youth player in a safe environment and let them grow into it. There is enough contingency to let the excellence flow.
What is most impressive to me: they don't seem to acquire many duds and then discard them. By the time you've made the bench, they know who you are and whether you're going to make it.
@Smuts post mentioned Mertz -> Carter -> Mo’unga, and those three have been immense. But to your point, during that period we had Aaron Mauger, Cameron McIntyre, Stephen Brett, Tyler Bleyandaal, Ben Volavola, Mitch Hunt, Brett Cameron all play 1st 5 at some point. The system does matter.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@NTA said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Even when they've had guys who are stars and can't seem to be replaced, they don't get wholesale change like some franchises. The organisation as a whole sunderstand that you need to ensure continuity of the team's value, and not just rely on stars. Like the ABs when they could bring in a talented youth player in a safe environment and let them grow into it. There is enough contingency to let the excellence flow.
What is most impressive to me: they don't seem to acquire many duds and then discard them. By the time you've made the bench, they know who you are and whether you're going to make it.
@Smuts post mentioned Mertz -> Carter -> Mo’unga, and those three have been immense. But to your point, during that period we had Aaron Mauger, Cameron McIntyre, Stephen Brett, Tyler Bleyandaal, Ben Volavola, Mitch Hunt, Brett Cameron all play 1st 5 at some point. The system does matter.
oh my heart fucking bleeds...
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@ACT-Crusader said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@NTA said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Even when they've had guys who are stars and can't seem to be replaced, they don't get wholesale change like some franchises. The organisation as a whole sunderstand that you need to ensure continuity of the team's value, and not just rely on stars. Like the ABs when they could bring in a talented youth player in a safe environment and let them grow into it. There is enough contingency to let the excellence flow.
What is most impressive to me: they don't seem to acquire many duds and then discard them. By the time you've made the bench, they know who you are and whether you're going to make it.
@Smuts post mentioned Mertz -> Carter -> Mo’unga, and those three have been immense. But to your point, during that period we had Aaron Mauger, Cameron McIntyre, Stephen Brett, Tyler Bleyandaal, Ben Volavola, Mitch Hunt, Brett Cameron all play 1st 5 at some point. The system does matter.
There's a difference between getting to finals and winning them. Mauger (03 final loss), McIntyre (04 final loss), Brett (09 semi final loss). Brett made the semi finals with the Blues in 2011 as a 10, Mitch Hunt made the Super rugby trans Ta$man final in 2021 as a 10 etc.
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@taniwharugby said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
The Bulls/Stormers game had 8 scrums and 29 lineouts
Someone may have already said it but this shows how important the hooker is and if course having multiple options. You really need two viable options in the loose forwards.
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My thoughts on why the crusaders win apart from the obvious coaching staff and players
Succession planning
Amazing academy
2 Universities in Christchurch
Razors theme’s
Extreme fitness levelsThey know who will be 80-90% of the players in their squad in 3-5 years time. George bell , seb Calder , jack Jones, Jamie Hannah , Taylor Cahill , joe brial , Torian Barnes , Fletcher Anderson Joel Lam , Jone Rova , and others I’ve missed in the chch academy and Many more in Ta$man. They don’t get them all right , but they do a bloody good job.
Having 2 Universities in Christchurch is huge , they both offer rugby scholarships . Which is a massive attraction for out of town kids.
Effectively the crusaders bring them in and someone else pays for it.I’ve had the privilege of watching razors theme videos for the last 6 years. They get better every year. I’m not going to go into details, but I can see how new players buy in straight away. Every person in the franchise is treated as an equal. All the office staff , kids etc are all involved in the theme.
Right from when they come into the academy they are subject to extreme fitness levels. They work bloody hard. Everything is gps tracked. Even when they’re at club trainings. They have a certain amount of kms they have to travel every week. If they haven’t done it , they do extra sessions on Friday afternoons.
Just my take and there’s plenty more too it. I’m sure I’ve missed quite a bit.
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@No-Quarter said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
The Crusaders dynasty was definitely starting to fall away under Blackadder even though they still had an AB laden team. I thought after greats like McCaw and Carter etc retired that they would be way back in the pack for quite a few years. Then Robertson took over and reversed that slide and has extended their dynasty way beyond what it should have gone for despite their weakened roster and their opposition rosters getting much stronger.
I firmly believe that if Robertson didn't take over they wouldn't have had even a quarter of the success they have had recently. He's obviously a really smart coach with deep understanding of the game - that much is self evident. But it's the soft skills that he also brings to the table which make him the complete package. It's one thing to come up with smart game plans to target opposition weaknesses etc, but it's quite another to get the entire squad to so thoroughly buy into those game plans that even when things don't go well, they rarely waver from it. He has every person in that organisation signing from the same song sheet, and that's no mean feat.
I think the ABs really missed a trick not giving him a crack. We actually had nothing to lose, we've been on the slide since 2015 and we needed someone to come in and try to reverse that as soon as possible. But instead we went for "continuity" with a guy that has no proven track record of success at the professional level, which just boggles my mind to this day. And as a result we've continued that same slide with further losses to NH sides as well as bloody Argentina.
Crusaders fans should relish having him in charge, they have one if the best coaches in the world sticking around for an extended run in SR instead of taking big money up north.
Exactly right. Did you notice the way the Crusaders forward pods played against the Blues? I've never seen a NZ team do anything like it. Who cares if the coach who devised that game-plan has International experience or not - that was the cutting edge in plain sight. That's the way the ABs need to be playing, instead of re-hashing the same old shit that has demonstrably been proven to be ineffective against teams that are more intellectual and structured than the All Blacks currently are.
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@KiwiMurph bang on. My speculation is that the Crusaders win championships because they’ve consistently fielded:
- World class flyhalf;
- Serviceable FB;
- World class lock (Maxwell, Jack, Whitelock);
- serviceable hooker.
control field position + possession + dependable kicker = wins.
They’re just the Bulls with better ballskills…
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@kiwi_expat he’s so obviously an excellent coach. Both technically and maybe more importantly on the player management and motivation side.
If I was SA Rugby I’d pay him a zillion bucks to spend 10 years at the Lions.
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Well I guess it is only next year now that NZR have to wait for Razor...
NZR should be doing background and canvassing now for post RWC candidates...who is available, who is good enough, who is going to want it.
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@taniwharugby said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Well I guess it is only next year now that NZR have to wait for Razor...
NZR should be doing background and canvassing now for post RWC candidates...who is available, who is good enough, who is going to want it.
haha, we'll wait until after the tournament right? Until we know how we went, right? Good coaches will wait for us right?
I am prepared for disappointment.
Also, I'd still prefer Robertson to have got experience outside Canterbury - but he's the prime candidate now and it's too late for that.
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@taniwharugby said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Well I guess it is only next year now that NZR have to wait for Razor...
NZR should be doing background and canvassing now for post RWC candidates...who is available, who is good enough, who is going to want it.
NZRFU are notorious for not firing coaches, although looking back more coaches have been fired for failing to win the RWC than not. So what (if anything) can save Fozzie from the axe? RWC semi appearance? Finalist? Or win it all? Would the fish heads keep him on regardless? I am no Fozz fan by the way
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@canefan said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@taniwharugby said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Well I guess it is only next year now that NZR have to wait for Razor...
NZR should be doing background and canvassing now for post RWC candidates...who is available, who is good enough, who is going to want it.
NZRFU are notorious for not firing coaches, although looking back more coaches have been fired for failing to win the RWC than not.
Fired is not the same as not having their contract renewed. Big difference. we still don't fire coaches, instead we extend their contracts to provide 'stability'.
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@canefan have to think semi-final is non-negotiable, final should be close to a must, then winning is a bonus given we know how fickle these tournaments are, and the players it took to win the 2011/2015 cups.
Would love to know the KPIs they have in place for Fozzie!
@nzzp yeah I expect they wont start the process until late next year, after which time all those who may be a chance, will have signed elsewhere.
Assume Rennie isnt an option post RWC, even if he was available, hopping straight from Aus to NZ....
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@canefan said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@taniwharugby said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Well I guess it is only next year now that NZR have to wait for Razor...
NZR should be doing background and canvassing now for post RWC candidates...who is available, who is good enough, who is going to want it.
NZRFU are notorious for not firing coaches, although looking back more coaches have been fired for failing to win the RWC than not. So what (if anything) can save Fozzie from the axe? RWC semi appearance? Finalist? Or win it all? Would the fish heads keep him on regardless? I am no Fozz fan by the way
In my view, right now he would probably have to win it.
He doesn't have a good enough record in the lead-up to warrant keeping him on. However, if he has a great season this year, that could change.
From what I remember, I think NZR was hell bent on sacking Mitch even if he'd won.
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@kiwi_expat said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
I think the ABs really missed a trick not giving him a crack. We actually had nothing to lose, we've been on the slide since 2015 and we needed someone to come in and try to reverse that as soon as possible. But instead we went for "continuity" with a guy that has no proven track record of success at the professional level, which just boggles my mind to this day. And as a result we've continued that same slide with further losses to NH sides as well as bloody Argentina.
Steve Hansen went on about the need for continuity in his backing of Foster. I thought to myself, continuity of what? We were comprehensively beaten by England and knocked out in the semis. That continuity?
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@nzzp said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@canefan said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@taniwharugby said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Well I guess it is only next year now that NZR have to wait for Razor...
NZR should be doing background and canvassing now for post RWC candidates...who is available, who is good enough, who is going to want it.
NZRFU are notorious for not firing coaches, although looking back more coaches have been fired for failing to win the RWC than not.
Fired is not the same as not having their contract renewed. Big difference. we still don't fire coaches, instead we extend their contracts to provide 'stability'.
Don’t forget about the ‘processes’ that they run…
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@Frank said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@kiwi_expat said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
I think the ABs really missed a trick not giving him a crack. We actually had nothing to lose, we've been on the slide since 2015 and we needed someone to come in and try to reverse that as soon as possible. But instead we went for "continuity" with a guy that has no proven track record of success at the professional level, which just boggles my mind to this day. And as a result we've continued that same slide with further losses to NH sides as well as bloody Argentina.
Steve Hansen went on about the need for continuity in his backing of Foster. I thought to myself, continuity of what? We were comprehensively beaten by England and knocked out in the semis. That continuity?
In fairness, it's continuity going back to 2004 (when Sir Ted & Co took over) and retaining much of what has been learned along the way. And Fozzie has Assistant coached us to a RWC win.
The continuity thing worked for us after 2007, but that's no guarantee that it always will. It didn't in 2019.
The other thing that's been blown out of all proportion is the Robbie/Sir Ted interview process where Robbie didn't turn up with a coaching team in place.
For this last round, we've had everyone putting together teams prior to appointment and diluted our coaching pool instead of picking a head coach and then putting together the best coaching team possible.
