Why do the Crusaders win?
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@Crazy-Horse said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@canefan said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@antipodean said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
One thing I've noticed is that well coached teams give clarity to the players who aren't superstars what their job is and how to do it effectively. The result of this attention to detail is that when teams are under the pump, those players know what to do rather than trying too hard and this helps them stay in pattern, defensively and offensively. The longer they can do that, the less opportunities they give the opposition.
Two other teams that do this well like the Crusaders do are the Brumbies and the Melbourne Storm.
The Storm and the Crusaders are two teams who make all of their players look the best versions of themselves. A huge part of this is the coaching and the systems as you say. When players leave Melbourne or the Saders almost none of them go on to be better players at their next stops
Agree about the Storm but I am not so sure players leaving the Saders do not become better. Players that spring to mind - Wainui, Hodgeman, Laulala, Harmon. But none of these were established as starters at the time. Even Romano had a better season than expected. Who left and went downhill? Has there even been a regular starter for the Saders leave in their peak for another Franchise? I can't recall.
That little fella that plays for the Highlanders
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@Tim said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Another question:
What over the last four years have been the organizational differences between the Crusaders and Canterbury?
The NZ contracting model means that they can stash All Blacks on top of All Blacks (e.g., Moody, Bower; Reece, Bridge, Ennor, Havili, Jordan) without any financial penalty, but I think that's been mentioned, so I'll add:
To what extent has having two integrated NPC sides and one academy helped the Crusaders during the last 8 years?
The Ta$man money XV used to be from all over, but now they are a stashing ground for Saders talent.
I think there are many many factors that make them the benchmark, which they 100% are. Organization, coaching, and talent. Most on here argued at the start of the year that the Saders had the best talent, and they showed that once they had them all healthy and playing at the end of the year - especially as they didn't select a 1st 5 on the bench but loaded up with ABs.
That does indicate that in the next next 18-24 months they'll have to develop some new game drivers or come back to the pack, but as long as they can get most of their minutes in the spine from Taylor, Whitelock, Mo'unga, Havili/Goodhue, Jordan, they will be very very dangerous.
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@FakatavaAllBlack he had a very good season last year but his form like a few others on the fringe has fallen off a cliff in 2022.
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@mariner4life said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@nzzp said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
they dynasty will end.
will it though?
25 fucking years of this now.
13 titles. 4 other finals.
5 other times to the postseason.they've just won 5 fucking straight.
They are the Storm but worse!
*6 straight
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They seem have an amazing team culture with great buy-in to the Head Coach's vision from the players and staff and fantastic support for the coaching staff from the administators and the supporters. Razor does a great job of keeping his playing squad happy and focussed without appeasing egos or letting arrogance creep in.
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@Tim said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Another question:
What over the last four years have been the organizational differences between the Crusaders and Canterbury?
They initially benefitted from intergrating Canterbury + Crusaders (remember you used to have to play for both to get a contract). Now they are using Ta$man a lot more for that - evolving with the change.
The separation of NPC and Super hurt them, but it's a slow burn; takes time to really play through.
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This is a fascinating thread.
It’s striking how few coaches and senior management they’ve had over the last quarter century. Just three CEOs and 5 head coaches. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that all their coaches played for Canterbury/Crusaders: they understand Crusaders rugby.
It’s probably impossible to replicate having Steve Tew as your first CEO or to find another Wayne Smith and Robbie Deans to step in as Head Coach and Manager to help build the culture and systems that will be the foundation of a dynasty.
It’s probably also impossible to replicate the financial/player contracting advantages the Crusader’s seem to have enjoyed under the franchise system.
But even if you could do all that, you’re going to struggle to replace Mehrtens with Carter and then to replace him with Mo’unga.
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Pretty simple:
Excellent coach
Very good and experienced players in key positions.Sam Whitelock bested farking Victor Matlock in a RWC semifinal, so it was a layup for him to annihilate Goodhue the lesser and someone with red hair.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Sam Whitelock bested farking Victor Matlock in a RWC semifinal, so it was a layup for him to annihilate Goodhue the lesser and someone with red hair.
Whitelock was immense.
I'm still puzzled by how he did so well vs the Bokke (Matfield was a spent force) in 2015, but had the sliding doors moment against 'punchable face' Owen Farrell in 2019. Cost us the chance to get back into the game.
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@nzzp said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Sam Whitelock bested farking Victor Matlock in a RWC semifinal, so it was a layup for him to annihilate Goodhue the lesser and someone with red hair.
Whitelock was immense.
I'm still puzzled by how he did so well vs the Bokke (Matfield was a spent force) in 2015, but had the sliding doors moment against 'punchable face' Owen Farrell in 2019. Cost us the chance to get back into the game.
Yeah, we deserved to lose that game, but that was a very decisive moment.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Not the only decisive moment. There were a quite few. For me personally, my hopes went out the window as soon as scatter-brain Jodie Barrett comes on and tries to run it out of the 22 with no support. (He is a vastly different player now before anyone starts bleating).
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@Smuts said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
It’s striking how few coaches and senior management they’ve had over the last quarter century. Just three CEOs and 5 head coaches. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that all their coaches played for Canterbury/Crusaders: they understand Crusaders rugby.
Bingo - alignment of the back office right through to selection, coaching, and playing group. "Culture" is the term used, but really it is down to good planning.
Even when they've had guys who are stars and can't seem to be replaced, they don't get wholesale change like some franchises. The organisation as a whole understand that you need to ensure continuity of the team's value, and not just rely on stars. Like the ABs when they could bring in a talented youth player in a safe environment and let them grow into it. There is enough contingency to let the excellence flow.
What is most impressive to me: they don't seem to acquire many duds and then discard them. By the time you've made the bench, they know who you are and whether you're going to make it.
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@NTA said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Even when they've had guys who are stars and can't seem to be replaced, they don't get wholesale change like some franchises. The organisation as a whole sunderstand that you need to ensure continuity of the team's value, and not just rely on stars. Like the ABs when they could bring in a talented youth player in a safe environment and let them grow into it. There is enough contingency to let the excellence flow.
What is most impressive to me: they don't seem to acquire many duds and then discard them. By the time you've made the bench, they know who you are and whether you're going to make it.
@Smuts post mentioned Mertz -> Carter -> Mo’unga, and those three have been immense. But to your point, during that period we had Aaron Mauger, Cameron McIntyre, Stephen Brett, Tyler Bleyandaal, Ben Volavola, Mitch Hunt, Brett Cameron all play 1st 5 at some point. The system does matter.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@NTA said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Even when they've had guys who are stars and can't seem to be replaced, they don't get wholesale change like some franchises. The organisation as a whole sunderstand that you need to ensure continuity of the team's value, and not just rely on stars. Like the ABs when they could bring in a talented youth player in a safe environment and let them grow into it. There is enough contingency to let the excellence flow.
What is most impressive to me: they don't seem to acquire many duds and then discard them. By the time you've made the bench, they know who you are and whether you're going to make it.
@Smuts post mentioned Mertz -> Carter -> Mo’unga, and those three have been immense. But to your point, during that period we had Aaron Mauger, Cameron McIntyre, Stephen Brett, Tyler Bleyandaal, Ben Volavola, Mitch Hunt, Brett Cameron all play 1st 5 at some point. The system does matter.
oh my heart fucking bleeds...
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@ACT-Crusader said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
@NTA said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
Even when they've had guys who are stars and can't seem to be replaced, they don't get wholesale change like some franchises. The organisation as a whole sunderstand that you need to ensure continuity of the team's value, and not just rely on stars. Like the ABs when they could bring in a talented youth player in a safe environment and let them grow into it. There is enough contingency to let the excellence flow.
What is most impressive to me: they don't seem to acquire many duds and then discard them. By the time you've made the bench, they know who you are and whether you're going to make it.
@Smuts post mentioned Mertz -> Carter -> Mo’unga, and those three have been immense. But to your point, during that period we had Aaron Mauger, Cameron McIntyre, Stephen Brett, Tyler Bleyandaal, Ben Volavola, Mitch Hunt, Brett Cameron all play 1st 5 at some point. The system does matter.
There's a difference between getting to finals and winning them. Mauger (03 final loss), McIntyre (04 final loss), Brett (09 semi final loss). Brett made the semi finals with the Blues in 2011 as a 10, Mitch Hunt made the Super rugby trans Ta$man final in 2021 as a 10 etc.
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@taniwharugby said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
The Bulls/Stormers game had 8 scrums and 29 lineouts
Someone may have already said it but this shows how important the hooker is and if course having multiple options. You really need two viable options in the loose forwards.
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My thoughts on why the crusaders win apart from the obvious coaching staff and players
Succession planning
Amazing academy
2 Universities in Christchurch
Razors theme’s
Extreme fitness levelsThey know who will be 80-90% of the players in their squad in 3-5 years time. George bell , seb Calder , jack Jones, Jamie Hannah , Taylor Cahill , joe brial , Torian Barnes , Fletcher Anderson Joel Lam , Jone Rova , and others I’ve missed in the chch academy and Many more in Ta$man. They don’t get them all right , but they do a bloody good job.
Having 2 Universities in Christchurch is huge , they both offer rugby scholarships . Which is a massive attraction for out of town kids.
Effectively the crusaders bring them in and someone else pays for it.I’ve had the privilege of watching razors theme videos for the last 6 years. They get better every year. I’m not going to go into details, but I can see how new players buy in straight away. Every person in the franchise is treated as an equal. All the office staff , kids etc are all involved in the theme.
Right from when they come into the academy they are subject to extreme fitness levels. They work bloody hard. Everything is gps tracked. Even when they’re at club trainings. They have a certain amount of kms they have to travel every week. If they haven’t done it , they do extra sessions on Friday afternoons.
Just my take and there’s plenty more too it. I’m sure I’ve missed quite a bit.
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@No-Quarter said in Why do the Crusaders win?:
The Crusaders dynasty was definitely starting to fall away under Blackadder even though they still had an AB laden team. I thought after greats like McCaw and Carter etc retired that they would be way back in the pack for quite a few years. Then Robertson took over and reversed that slide and has extended their dynasty way beyond what it should have gone for despite their weakened roster and their opposition rosters getting much stronger.
I firmly believe that if Robertson didn't take over they wouldn't have had even a quarter of the success they have had recently. He's obviously a really smart coach with deep understanding of the game - that much is self evident. But it's the soft skills that he also brings to the table which make him the complete package. It's one thing to come up with smart game plans to target opposition weaknesses etc, but it's quite another to get the entire squad to so thoroughly buy into those game plans that even when things don't go well, they rarely waver from it. He has every person in that organisation signing from the same song sheet, and that's no mean feat.
I think the ABs really missed a trick not giving him a crack. We actually had nothing to lose, we've been on the slide since 2015 and we needed someone to come in and try to reverse that as soon as possible. But instead we went for "continuity" with a guy that has no proven track record of success at the professional level, which just boggles my mind to this day. And as a result we've continued that same slide with further losses to NH sides as well as bloody Argentina.
Crusaders fans should relish having him in charge, they have one if the best coaches in the world sticking around for an extended run in SR instead of taking big money up north.
Exactly right. Did you notice the way the Crusaders forward pods played against the Blues? I've never seen a NZ team do anything like it. Who cares if the coach who devised that game-plan has International experience or not - that was the cutting edge in plain sight. That's the way the ABs need to be playing, instead of re-hashing the same old shit that has demonstrably been proven to be ineffective against teams that are more intellectual and structured than the All Blacks currently are.
