All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
it may surprise all on here but I am not a fan of our coaching tactics. But I don't think we should get personally nasty.
I still think our players are better than the way they played this season or the results, but we don't have the players of yore and the competition has got better. We just have to live with it and probably another poor 2 years.The really frustrating thing is that in parts tonite - 40-60 mins - they were great. But once things started to go wrong, so many players seemed to fall apart and they weren't the newer players either.
Discipline when they have momentum with them is really fragile which makes me wonder if there's a team mentality issue.
My sense is that the players are mentally stale. Quite a few games. Being in bubble. Vibe of the set up. Players coming and going.
Trying to rouse themselves (which they did) when running on fumes.
Contrast the Boks who seem pretty focussed and hungry, still.
Difficult season with Covid restrictions but not a good reflection on management.
Yeah - remember when Henry said it's hard to play well in tests for three weeks in a row. These guys have had two sets of five on this tour. Jordie, who was previously excellent, I think probably symptomatic that the gas in the tank is largely burned up.
I'm not really going to bag Foster for his selections, because I don't think he's got too many wrong. This week I think he saw the necessity of hitting the refresh button and most of his changes were relatively good. Coles and Samisoni for Taylor. Cane at 7. Smith at 9. Tupaea at 12. Akira and Bridge went well enough.
Little Richie had a bit of a shocker, especially in the second half where things got progressively worse for him. Poor old Dave Havili - when your luck's not in... I need to have another look, but I suspect the French wing made a 14 point play. We looked to have plenty of firepower to the left if Havili can make a fast transfer.
Sliding doors moment - Jordan's calf muscle - we still had his obligatory try up our sleeves when he hobbled off.
Bigger one was the kick-chase that ended in Ardie going to the bin.On the plus side, we've got Scott Barrett, Tuipolotu, Blackadder, PapaliÃ, Jacobson, Sotutu, Fakatava (probably), Beauden, ALB, Goodhue, and Clarke all in the wings to potentially play roles in the top team next year.
Fozzie's not going to get sacked for the fade at the end of a tough tour. I doubt he and his team are the guys to win us a RWC - or give us our best chance - but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
I'm not going to bag foster for his selections either, it's the fact or gamelan had no depth, innovation, improvement, or even change since 2015!
It doesn't feel like the gameplan for this group of players. I saw Eddie Jones say earlier that he changes the England gameplan based on the players he has to work with. That's good coaching.
you didnt see any different game plans from tests to test from the all blacks?
I saw something different at beginning of 2nd half against France.
I saw consistently poor tactical kicking and aerial bombs, poor ball retention and cleanouts. Aaron Smith's pass is a thing of beauty, but even that struggled to fire a backline that looks v disjointed (albeit one that showed signs of promise in 2nd half).
Scrum ok. Lineout ok. No real strike moves off either that are manipulating defences and creating opportunities. Something I've always expected from AB sides.
Smith's passing did seem shorter and slower than usual to me, I wondered why.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Why has Samisoni played so few minutes considering everyone loves him, does he have fitness issues?
guessing that he has been groomed with experenced players around him and not overloaded. only made team because of injures.
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Why has Samisoni played so few minutes considering everyone loves him, does he have fitness issues?
guessing that he has been groomed with experenced players around him and not overloaded. only made team because of injures.
No need to groom him anymore. He's arrived.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
it may surprise all on here but I am not a fan of our coaching tactics. But I don't think we should get personally nasty.
I still think our players are better than the way they played this season or the results, but we don't have the players of yore and the competition has got better. We just have to live with it and probably another poor 2 years.The really frustrating thing is that in parts tonite - 40-60 mins - they were great. But once things started to go wrong, so many players seemed to fall apart and they weren't the newer players either.
Discipline when they have momentum with them is really fragile which makes me wonder if there's a team mentality issue.
My sense is that the players are mentally stale. Quite a few games. Being in bubble. Vibe of the set up. Players coming and going.
Trying to rouse themselves (which they did) when running on fumes.
Contrast the Boks who seem pretty focussed and hungry, still.
Difficult season with Covid restrictions but not a good reflection on management.
Yeah - remember when Henry said it's hard to play well in tests for three weeks in a row. These guys have had two sets of five on this tour. Jordie, who was previously excellent, I think probably symptomatic that the gas in the tank is largely burned up.
I'm not really going to bag Foster for his selections, because I don't think he's got too many wrong. This week I think he saw the necessity of hitting the refresh button and most of his changes were relatively good. Coles and Samisoni for Taylor. Cane at 7. Smith at 9. Tupaea at 12. Akira and Bridge went well enough.
Little Richie had a bit of a shocker, especially in the second half where things got progressively worse for him. Poor old Dave Havili - when your luck's not in... I need to have another look, but I suspect the French wing made a 14 point play. We looked to have plenty of firepower to the left if Havili can make a fast transfer.
Sliding doors moment - Jordan's calf muscle - we still had his obligatory try up our sleeves when he hobbled off.
Bigger one was the kick-chase that ended in Ardie going to the bin.On the plus side, we've got Scott Barrett, Tuipolotu, Blackadder, PapaliÃ, Jacobson, Sotutu, Fakatava (probably), Beauden, ALB, Goodhue, and Clarke all in the wings to potentially play roles in the top team next year.
Fozzie's not going to get sacked for the fade at the end of a tough tour. I doubt he and his team are the guys to win us a RWC - or give us our best chance - but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
I'm not going to bag foster for his selections either, it's the fact or gamelan had no depth, innovation, improvement, or even change since 2015!
It doesn't feel like the gameplan for this group of players. I saw Eddie Jones say earlier that he changes the England gameplan based on the players he has to work with. That's good coaching.
you didnt see any different game plans from tests to test from the all blacks?
I saw something different at beginning of 2nd half against France.
I saw consistently poor tactical kicking and aerial bombs, poor ball retention and cleanouts. Aaron Smith's pass is a thing of beauty, but even that struggled to fire a backline that looks v disjointed (albeit one that showed signs of promise in 2nd half).
Scrum ok. Lineout ok. No real strike moves off either that are manipulating defences and creating opportunities. Something I've always expected from AB sides.
ok
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That didn't hurt as much because it was absolutely predictable. We get the shit beaten out of us the first half, start to muscle up and play more direct in the second, expend a herculean amount of energy getting back into the game, take a breath, other team gets back into it and we're done.
It's like letting someone in a race get way ahead of you to preserve energy but then blowing your load catching up and not having enough in the tank to finish it off.
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Good game!! Enjoyed it immensely. Both teams had a fucking go, some really good hits, some really good play, and a deserved win for the team that nailed their opportunities.
Yeah we lost, it's a bit shit, but there was some good stuff. Forwards were good. Set piece was good. Backs had some bright moments. George fucking Bridge played bloody well.
What killed us was individual errors, lots and lots of individual errors. And France turning errors in to points.
And a huge issue was our 10 and 15 had absolute stinkers, and the 23 is quite shit. Jordie has a bad day, but us a good player. Mounga is just not a good test match 10, he has no idea what to do against test match level defence. And is an absolute liability on defence. Havili is just not up to it either.
Also, please, pretty please, can this be the death of ardie savea at 8? He is just not good enough, not physical enough, and his ruck work is actually appalling.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
That didn't hurt as much because it was absolutely predictable. We get the shit beaten out of us the first half, start to muscle up and play more direct in the second, expend a herculean amount of energy getting back into the game, take a breath, other team gets back into it and we're done.
It's like letting someone in a race get way ahead of you to preserve energy but then blowing your load catching up and not having enough in the tank to finish it off.
Very Warriors-esque
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@donsteppa said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's funny watching Stuff and the Herald trying to headline it as a "shock" loss. The last two weeks have been many things, but they've been completely unsurprising...
This week, for the first time ever I tipped the opposition against the ABs in a tipping comp.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Good game!! Enjoyed it immensely. Both teams had a fucking go, some really good hits, some really good play, and a deserved win for the team that nailed their opportunities.
Yeah we lost, it's a bit shit, but there was some good stuff. Forwards were good. Set piece was good. Backs had some bright moments. George fucking Bridge played bloody well.
What killed us was individual errors, lots and lots of individual errors. And France turning errors in to points.
And a huge issue was our 10 and 15 had absolute stinkers, and the 23 is quite shit. Jordie has a bad day, but us a good player. Mounga is just not a good test match 10, he has no idea what to do against test match level defence. And is an absolute liability on defence. Havili is just not up to it either.
Also, please, pretty please, can this be the death of ardie savea at 8? He is just not good enough, not physical enough, and his ruck work is actually appalling.
I must have
higherstandards than you. He was passable. Bloody good? I think not. -
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@donsteppa said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's funny watching Stuff and the Herald trying to headline it as a "shock" loss. The last two weeks have been many things, but they've been completely unsurprising...
This week, for the first time ever I tipped the opposition against the ABs in a tipping comp.
Hand in your passport! 🤣
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
That didn't hurt as much because it was absolutely predictable. We get the shit beaten out of us the first half, start to muscle up and play more direct in the second, expend a herculean amount of energy getting back into the game, take a breath, other team gets back into it and we're done.
It's like letting someone in a race get way ahead of you to preserve energy but then blowing your load catching up and not having enough in the tank to finish it off.
I'd be keen to know if the second half change in tactics was explicitly instructed to the players by the coaching team at half-time, or if the players made the decision themselves.
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I can't remember the last time I saw the AB defence knock opposing ball carriers back behind the gain line. That type of aggressive defence consistently provided opportunities for turnover ball or forced opposing teams to make mistakes/give away penalties.
It would be before McLeod I think.
Did they stop defending like this because of the card risk? Or is it to soak up attackers in the hope of isolating them?
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So where do I start. The horror start I guess. But really not much to say before I read the thread over a coffee, which should be fun.
Congrats to France, they had an awesome opening 20 which put the game in the bag for them.
The Magpies loss last week broke me a bit to the point I couldn't even bring myself to watch the NPC final yesterday, so I was out of touch with kick off time, thought it was 3am so didn't get up at 7am to watch live. Was watching replay when I did get up and the ABs had just closed to 24-18 when an Aussie mate of mine sent multiple messages to multiple group threads spoiling the result. My bad for not turning off notifications I guess.
Some good stuff:
The comeback was decent. We got back into the game and could have come away with a win.
Reiko in space and running at full flight. I think he's a good centre but he's an excellent wing so would prefer he was played there. Rieko on the left and Jordan on the right is genuine firepower.
I liked the work of both hookers. Taukeiaho was awesome when he came on and Coles put in a decent aggressive shift.
I know people have been complaining about BBBR all year but he put in a decent shift, and I daresay that after an off season of hitting some weights he'll be getting back to peak next year.
Cane got through a decent 80 minute shift, which is good looking forward to next year.
Some not so good stuff:
In that opening 20 the French played just like the Irish with runners off the ball carrier in slightly closer. The ABs just need to defend against this better.
After a stellar year Jordie has a bit of an off night with a couple of the old errors he used to make creeping back in.
Shit defence. Why do we have such shit defence patterns at the moment? Who is the defence coach? Maybe we need one of those technocrat NH style NZ coaches (Gats/Schmidt etc) to come in and sort out the defence?
Why take Smith off when we were starting to build (I mean I like the ABs to have as many Magpies on the field as possible but still). Same with Akira, just as he was carting the ball more in close.
Ardie's yellow card pissed me off, it was so fucking stupid and that play wouldn't have helped the ABs in any way.
I guess that's all.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
This is a worse take than how badly the AB the ABs played in the first half.
Not at the beginning of his career when first made it to ABs. He was an athlete, but nothing like the powerful blindside he would become. I recall him being dropped from the squad to work in his game, i.e. it wasn't there from day 1. That was the point
Fair enough, you probably should have specified that you were talking about before he became a regular.
Even I got what what Stodders was referring to!
When my Kaino bat signal goes off I leap in fully cocked.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Good game!! Enjoyed it immensely. Both teams had a fucking go, some really good hits, some really good play, and a deserved win for the team that nailed their opportunities.
Yeah we lost, it's a bit shit, but there was some good stuff. Forwards were good. Set piece was good. Backs had some bright moments. George fucking Bridge played bloody well.
What killed us was individual errors, lots and lots of individual errors. And France turning errors in to points.
And a huge issue was our 10 and 15 had absolute stinkers, and the 23 is quite shit. Jordie has a bad day, but us a good player. Mounga is just not a good test match 10, he has no idea what to do against test match level defence. And is an absolute liability on defence. Havili is just not up to it either.
Also, please, pretty please, can this be the death of ardie savea at 8? He is just not good enough, not physical enough, and his ruck work is actually appalling.
Not going to read back so probably repeating someone else but why oh why did Havili come on for Jordan? Surely sticking DMac on the wing with instructions to interchange with JB and RM would have been a better gamble?
The silver lining is that the weaknesses have all been exposed. Now the challenge for the coaches is to recognise who and what isn't up to it and rebuild. The difference someone like Samisoni made was so massively obvious. Move aside Taylor and Coles. Thanks for your service.
All props should be told that unless they show they can play like mobile cannonballs they are gone.
I have sympathy for Whitelock and Rettalick but they need to show up fresh and full of energy or become mentors.
Ardie needs to go to being an impact player with Cane and Pas on the sides and Akira/Hoskins set loose as flying 8sI don't mind our halfback position but hoping for Fakatava to come into the picture.
RM isn't up to playing when not behind a dominant pack/ He has had time since the last world cup to sort that out and hasn't delivered. We need to pull a rabbit out of the hat to support BB.
QT looks worth keeping but I am hoping that PUJ/Wrampling puts options on the table.
Jordan needs to learn to add more to his game than being a (very good) chancer.
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@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
This is a worse take than how badly the AB the ABs played in the first half.
Not at the beginning of his career when first made it to ABs. He was an athlete, but nothing like the powerful blindside he would become. I recall him being dropped from the squad to work in his game, i.e. it wasn't there from day 1. That was the point
Fair enough, you probably should have specified that you were talking about before he became a regular.
Even I got what what Stodders was referring to!
When my Kaino bat signal goes off I leap in fully cocked.
I hope it doesn't affect your sleep-all that tossing around.
