All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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TJ quoted in Stuff "Other teams will look at the way Ireland played, look at how many phases they went through and think, ‘man, if we can take the ball away from the All Blacks we make it harder for them to win football games’"
Jesus, ya think? This has only been the common theme of every defeat suffered by this team for the last five years. Thanks for finally noticing, please be sure to pass your intel on to Fozzie.
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@nta been happening for a while now , some broadcasters milk it big time , they know they will get crowd reaction.
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@steven-harris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta been happening for a while now , some broadcasters milk it big time , they know they will get crowd reaction.
Seem to remember it happening to us in NZ as well - try to ?Speight? called back after it was rulled DHP had run Savea off his line.
Only took the Sky OB director three replays on the big screen to get the TMO involved 😉
In all seriousness, it isn't a good look for anyone and shows that replays are a double edged sword. Against England, Samu gets done after a replay for a high tackle.
Ok.
The week before at Murrayfield, Alaalatoa got done for his clumsy cleanout. But in the ball carrier action right before he got done, there was a clear high tackle from Scotland, pretty much identical to Samu. No action taken.
I don't want the game to become grid iron.
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@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Lowe and JGP are Maori. Not white guys with Irish grannies but Maori, facing the haka and winning. Fucking hilarious. This is the future the NZRU chose with Foster.
I still can’t get over a guy called Sione Tuipulotu playing for Scotland.
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I am surprised that, unusually, I am unable to find many positives in an AB performance. Thankfully there was at least one - WJ's try. Another is the opportunity to learn from ones mistakes.
The biggest is the Springbok disease of excessive and aimless kicking. The ABs have punished them time and again for it so why afford Ireland the same opportunity?
It does not hurt to have too much grunt up front in a test match or any rugby game for that matter. Against any serious opposition Ardie must start.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nevorian yep, him getting 5% more from them and quicker service will alter things immensely for our attack and fringe defence
It is all about taking the opportunity and backing yourselves more,, on a couple of occasions there whereTJ decided to kick on turnovers where I think Smith would have counterattacked
Also I liked how DP set up the CT try, he was probably expecting to come around the line out and run into contact, but saw the gap and made an early decision to back himself and accelerate and knowing that there would be support with him, a sign that he is growing into his role more
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@profitius said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Ireland played like a Schmidt-coached and drilled team to my ignorant eyes but with more steel in the attack and defense. Is that also the opinion of the Irish fans?
IMO Farrell is an excellent defense coach. Which is a bit surprising given how his son tackles.No. They stopped playing the Schmidt way at the end of the last 6 nations against England. Farrell tore up the Schmidt script and got them playing with pace and moving the ball more.
Thanks, I did notice they made our forwards look like 2nd rate plodders.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Some tackle stats:
Tackles made - tackles missed - tackle %
Best:
Papalii: 23 - 1 - 96
Blackadder: 19 - 1 - 95
Joe Moody: 18 - 1 - 95
Sam Whitelock: 17 - 0 - 100(Akira: 0 - 0 )
Best backs:
ALB: 12 - 0 - 100
Mo'unga: 11 - 0 - 100Worst:
Laulala: 16 - 5 - 76
Reece: 11 - 3 - 79I saw Akira make dominant tackles.
Updated tackles stats (there is apparently a considerable delay).
Remember that not all players played the same number of minutes:Tackles made - tackles missed - tackle %
Best:
Papalii: 29 - 1 - 97
Sam Whitelock: 24 - 0 - 100
Blackadder: 20 - 1 - 95
Joe Moody: 18 - 1 - 95(Akira: 3 - 0 - 100)
Best backs:
Mo'unga: 14 - 0 - 100
ALB: 12 - 0 - 100
Worst:
Laulala: 16 - 5 - 76
Reece: 13 - 3 - 81Not your fault if you did not know the stats had not been completed but it's misleading to quote or publish stats before they are complete. Esp in the case of Akira off the bench.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Some tackle stats:
Tackles made - tackles missed - tackle %
Best:
Papalii: 23 - 1 - 96
Blackadder: 19 - 1 - 95
Joe Moody: 18 - 1 - 95
Sam Whitelock: 17 - 0 - 100(Akira: 0 - 0 )
Best backs:
ALB: 12 - 0 - 100
Mo'unga: 11 - 0 - 100Worst:
Laulala: 16 - 5 - 76
Reece: 11 - 3 - 79I saw Akira make dominant tackles.
Updated tackles stats (there is apparently a considerable delay).
Remember that not all players played the same number of minutes:Tackles made - tackles missed - tackle %
Best:
Papalii: 29 - 1 - 97
Sam Whitelock: 24 - 0 - 100
Blackadder: 20 - 1 - 95
Joe Moody: 18 - 1 - 95(Akira: 3 - 0 - 100)
Best backs:
Mo'unga: 14 - 0 - 100
ALB: 12 - 0 - 100
Worst:
Laulala: 16 - 5 - 76
Reece: 13 - 3 - 81Not your fault if you did not know the stats had not been completed but it's misleading to quote or publish stats before they are complete. Esp in the case of Akira off the bench.
The stats for the ABs are so bad, that ESPN are too ashamed to even list the game!
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@machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Some tackle stats:
Tackles made - tackles missed - tackle %
Best:
Papalii: 23 - 1 - 96
Blackadder: 19 - 1 - 95
Joe Moody: 18 - 1 - 95
Sam Whitelock: 17 - 0 - 100(Akira: 0 - 0 )
Best backs:
ALB: 12 - 0 - 100
Mo'unga: 11 - 0 - 100Worst:
Laulala: 16 - 5 - 76
Reece: 11 - 3 - 79I saw Akira make dominant tackles.
Updated tackles stats (there is apparently a considerable delay).
Remember that not all players played the same number of minutes:Tackles made - tackles missed - tackle %
Best:
Papalii: 29 - 1 - 97
Sam Whitelock: 24 - 0 - 100
Blackadder: 20 - 1 - 95
Joe Moody: 18 - 1 - 95(Akira: 3 - 0 - 100)
Best backs:
Mo'unga: 14 - 0 - 100
ALB: 12 - 0 - 100
Worst:
Laulala: 16 - 5 - 76
Reece: 13 - 3 - 81Not your fault if you did not know the stats had not been completed but it's misleading to quote or publish stats before they are complete. Esp in the case of Akira off the bench.
The stats for the ABs are so bad, that ESPN are too ashamed to even list the game!
I have spent my rest day asking myself if I am too hard on the coaches.
After reflection and some existential food shopping (looks for that bottle of grigio) I am convinced it is clearly coaching, the same issues in the same key positions against good sides no matter who is playing.
Especially in the loosies which I think we all believed was a strength at the start of the season, they are not cohesive, easily stranded, and reduced to individual heroics. Ethan and Akira and sometimes Ardie look like they need personal training on how to work with the rest of the team.
One plus, I think we have a clearer idea on hookers, but locks? Oh dear.Several players are constantly out of position (I don't think I need to tell you who) and even in the lineouts we are about as unpredictable as Ian Foster's dress sense.
A coach has to go. The issues we saw against Fiji have not gone away. Some signs were in games against the Argies and the Wallabies and crystal clear against the Boks and the Irish. So what did the wise men do? Tell us how prepared they are.This includes reselecting TJP, cutting A Smith's rest short, playing JB at wing, and selecting the steady if non-catch version hands of George Smoking Joe Smith whenever possible even though he is out of form, lost confidence, and makes Caleb Ralph look like Usain Bolt or Jack Goodhue look like Roadrunner. And they did not try established midfielders but recuperating food bill and sometimes winger Ennor at centre. Plus I think they timed bench replacements well about once this year?
We are no closer to a suitable test class tight head and I can't tell you what their no. 10 policy is. At 9 they certainly don't seem to place much emphasis on passing the ball. We seem to have played ourselves out of long-term 12 and 13 options (I still like Quinn Tupaea)and they will just put ALB where there is a gap to mop up mistakes rather than trying to establish his key skills.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Some tackle stats:
Tackles made - tackles missed - tackle %
Best:
Papalii: 23 - 1 - 96
Blackadder: 19 - 1 - 95
Joe Moody: 18 - 1 - 95
Sam Whitelock: 17 - 0 - 100(Akira: 0 - 0 )
Best backs:
ALB: 12 - 0 - 100
Mo'unga: 11 - 0 - 100Worst:
Laulala: 16 - 5 - 76
Reece: 11 - 3 - 79I saw Akira make dominant tackles.
Updated tackles stats (there is apparently a considerable delay).
Remember that not all players played the same number of minutes:Tackles made - tackles missed - tackle %
Best:
Papalii: 29 - 1 - 97
Sam Whitelock: 24 - 0 - 100
Blackadder: 20 - 1 - 95
Joe Moody: 18 - 1 - 95(Akira: 3 - 0 - 100)
Best backs:
Mo'unga: 14 - 0 - 100
ALB: 12 - 0 - 100
Worst:
Laulala: 16 - 5 - 76
Reece: 13 - 3 - 81Not your fault if you did not know the stats had not been completed but it's misleading to quote or publish stats before they are complete. Esp in the case of Akira off the bench.
I am sure I saw Mo’unga miss a tackle
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@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders Wayne Smith would be great!
Defensive coach: as mentioned above, Mitchell or Schmidt
Forwards coach: Coventry or Jason Ryan and Scott Hansen
Attack Coach: Smith
Analyst: Robertson
Head Coach: Rennie (too late now)EDIT: Tony Brown does interesting things with his attack, especially off set-piece ball.
Rennie who’s currently 0-2 on the NH tour, including a loss to Scotland? The hype train just never stops.
If Aussie actually beat NZ for once then we see.
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Watched the game this afternoon.
First point to get out of the way: the bitching and fucking moaning from everyone. Pearce has the patience of a saint. I'd have been carding people left, right, and centre for some of that shit. Sexton was the worst (and yes Dane, he is a mouthy fluffybunny, you mouthy fluffybunny) but several on both sides weren't far behind.
The Ref: I saw a few things that went against the ABs early I thought were a bit rough but they didn't make a difference to the result IMHO; none of them were unrecoverable.
The game: Ireland won through intensity, accuracy, and cohesion. A lot of these guys have spent a lot of time together, and it shows.
The All Blacks' constant rotation shows in the lack of connection between a lot of players. Losing Beaugan early was a bit of a blow but all he'd done to that point was kick badly. Mo'unga continued the trend.
That was the story of the AB possession stats: kicking what little ball they had without purpose. The worst part was they'd do that around halfway, but inside their 22 they're taking dumb shit taps. Looked panicked and rudderless.
Some genuine stupidity in hitting Sexton late a couple of times, and TBH Blackadder was lucky not to escape harsher sanction; the ref was well within his right to explain to Whitelock that it was a clear professional foul and it had to stop, therefore yellow card was the lesson. There was a later one from Lomax on an Irish reserve which was just petty and stupid. Again: ref would have been well within his rights to go harder on that given repeat offences.
Foster must have a fucking airtight keg of powder in a secret volcano lair, that he's keeping dry for RWC2023, because the same basic, through-the-hands attack line happens again and again and again. No subtlety. No work off the ball. It is great when it is Aussie falling off tackles, making Akira Ioane look like a superstar, but looks utterly amateur when it is someone who doesn't miss very much.
The AB defence is built off waiting for a turnover (big de ja vu moment here as I type this), but they got fuck all in that department and so the rest of the plan - just score more points when the other side fuck up - fell to shit.
AB defence was outstanding in terms of tackle percentage BUT it was all down the wrong end. And add in that Ireland pick and choose their moment to go into contact that stands out, using their hands to create yards post-breakdown. The ruck is accurate and quick. The backline has bodies in motion, all players across the squad, with hands dropping the ball short and/or in behind to sweeping backline moves with varying depth, pace, and angle. Beautiful to watch, and similar to Scotland.
This isn't just the Wales-under-Gatland 2 dummy runners with a ball out the back that won a couple of 6N because NH sides didn't do back play back then. It is ambition and shows the work and planning to get that execution right when they're in their green zone - centre field - with what looks like no set ruck count like some over-engineered plans.
The Kiwi imports helped turn the screws. Lowe was great. The halfback was awesome. It shows the depth NZ is gifting to the world, but these guys played far better than their opposites.
Ringrose was the best on ground for me - always threatened, always hard to put away. Made the right decisions, stretched the defence.
But fucking hell their forwards put in some work. Utterly bitched the AB pack who looked like they'd just met in the carpark, and forgot to tell their backrow they were required for 80 minutes besides.
I'm not saying Whitelock and Retallick are a spent force, but you look at their effect on a game and think their best years are behind them besides pushing at scrum. Laulala is so hit and miss. Taylor is the guy you want to grind out the first 60 and then bring Coles on to be a niggly fluffybunny for 20. Moody needs to improve.
To me it was a great game to watch, and the right team won by at least the correct margin.
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@nta you can't win turnovers with passive tackles
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta you can't win turnovers with passive tackles
Agreed.
A good percentage of the turnovers in multi-phase D against Australia were just easy strips (I reference this morning's game at Twickenham) or knocks-on or intercepts. The rest were ruck turnovers against a side who can't cover their ball.
That is no preparation for a team like Ireland who were running with pace and purpose, and the ABs had no way to stop it because they couldn't get in at the ruck against a more accurate team. And they were doing it mostly inside their own 40.
Something something RWC2019SF?
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@nta said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta you can't win turnovers with passive tackles
Agreed.
A good percentage of the turnovers in multi-phase D against Australia were just easy strips (I reference this morning's game at Twickenham) or knocks-on or intercepts. The rest were ruck turnovers against a side who can't cover their ball.
That is no preparation for a team like Ireland who were running with pace and purpose, and the ABs had no way to stop it because they couldn't get in at the ruck against a more accurate team. And they were doing it mostly inside their own 40.
Something something RWC2019SF?
The Irish ball security was leagues ahead of ours.
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Geez I can't believe how overly critical people are on here. In a galaxy light years from here...
A team was kept together in isolation for a 15 match program all over the world and away from family and friends and after a challenging super program.
That team played most of their latest match without their top 9 10 and 12 and without their best loose forward and usual captain. They played an Irish team that was on fire and still hung in the game until a questionable call to kick and not scrum.
They could not shuffle players in and out and the coaches did their best to keep everyone involved and to build combinations and experience and try a few new things.
They even won some matches along the way and may have even broken World point and try scoring records and won the odd trophy.
But they could not keep the fans happy or combat their demand for heads to roll. They were consistent though having said the same things since before the first match.
Geez it is a tough world out there.
I am proud of the way they hung in there without a few key hands. Well played Ireland. You deserve more credit than the opposition demand scorn. -
@nta said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster must have a fucking airtight keg of powder in a secret volcano lair, that he's keeping dry for RWC2023, because the same basic, through-the-hands attack line happens again and again and again. No subtlety. No work off the ball. It is great when it is Aussie falling off tackles, making Akira Ioane look like a superstar, but looks utterly amateur when it is someone who doesn't miss very much.
The AB defence is built off waiting for a turnover (big de ja vu moment here as I type this), but they got fuck all in that department and so the rest of the plan - just score more points when the other side fuck up - fell to shit.They put it the 'playing off nine to suck in rush defences until you've earned the right to go wide' powder away after Lions #2. They must've lost the key, cos we could've used it quite a few times since!
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@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Players of a known quantity are underperforming, new players don't cut the mustard. That's on the coach.Or the players just aren't there? The player pool at 9 isn't exactly overflowing and that's not down to Foster
Except it is. Robertson can win Super Trophies with Drummond -- who isn't even in the reckoning for the ABs.
That wasn't the point I was making. I'm not sure your argument that the player pool (and how it is developed) doesn't matter and holds water. It's not like a journeyman 10 would be a world-beater under the right AB coach. We are short of skilled players in a number of positions
Robertson's hardly a lone exception. We can all cite coaches who just seem to get the best out of players. And other coaches who turn gold into, um, not gold.
So any half-decent coach other than Foster would turn things around? I suspect the problems are way deeper than that.
It's no good saying that NZ isn't producing the quality of players we used to, when our Super and provincial teams are streaks ahead of everyone else.
Not sure we are not streaks ahead at all - otherwise our Super Rugby teams would hammer the opposition every week - and that may be part of the problem. We're not awash with McCaw's, Carter's, Nonu's & Smith's - even if we had all these great coaches the NZRFU have rejected who can turn average players into matchwinners.
And when our rejects are starting players for other countries.
The same can be said for Sth Africa, Australia and Fiji so I'm not sure I get your point.
Our game plan seems to be, kick it as soon as you get it except in their 22, and hope to score from individual brilliance. It's a shit plan, and it deserves what it got last night. It isn't like Beauden was carving up when he was on, he kicked it even more than Mo'unga. It has to be the plan, not the players.
I agree with you on the game plan (assuming there is actually a plan...), but don't you think the players have some responsibility in executing the plan? Being disciplined enough not to give away dumb penalties? Senior players stepping up when things aren't working?
It's pretty clear something has gone badly wrong since 2016/17 (the seeds may have been sown earlier) and I don't think that's all down to Foster. The NZRFU needs to take a good hard look at what's going on, identify the problems, find fixes and apply them
Maybe Robertson or another coach will become a messiah who'll solve all the problems, but I have my doubts and don't want to be hearing the same arguments about Robertson in 2 years time.
