All Blacks vs Pumas II
-
@chris Makes complete sense. The stats showed that locks and backrow know they can't go 100% for 80 minutes so all "dial-back" their effort over a period to conserve energy (I won't call it a rest!)
That period was normally within Q2 and Q3. Q1 was always very high. Q4 was high if the game was tight ... so that dial-back is giving them the potential to go full-throttle in the last quarter when needed. (the stats were bloody good for seeing workrate ... #1/2/3 at rucks, did the player make an impact at rucks as well as normal stuff like carries, tackle count).
How to know when to dial-back - as you say - must be a combination of experience at international level and a bit of an artform.
Pumas game 1 - I noticed Papilli had a quiet patch from maybe 20-35 minutes ... he did his job but wasn't looking for extra work. Now Paps isn't lazy, tbh quite the opposite so I can only guess he'd figured that was his time to dial-back.
From 35-40 he suddenly starts to have a huge involvement again, hitting lots of rucks, comes off the back of the maul, makes a big turnover, all in that 5 minutes ... and he goes strongly through to 80.Pumas 2 game - I'd have to rewatch (again!!) but got the impression Ethan went flat out for 65 minutes, he was everywhere. I'm guessing he was running on fumes by 70, and he certainly looked like he hit a wall at 75.
Just interesting to see how these huge-workrate players when playing 80 minutes have to manage their own energy individually, and balance that in-game.
-
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
In theory I'd sayArdie would be our best option as a bench loosie going forward.Agreed
-
@chris said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@voodoo For this weekend I think I'd prefer to see Aoane, Paps, Ardie. Ardie and Paps to go absolutely nuts, whoever is more knackered gets to come off and have Jacobson come on to run through the exhausted boks and put that shoulder into some already struggling diaphragms.
Yep, I likes that. My back row was a fast forward to the whole squad being fit, Cane back and firing etc. I really like Jacobson though, and whilst I feel for Ardie, it just feels like his best number has double digits (no #12 jokes please...)
Agree with all of that including giving Jacobson a run at 8 with Ardie off the bench.
btw where does Ethan Blackadder normally start for the Crusaders?
I haven't followed him closely but he looks like a 7/6 to me rather than a 6/7 if you get my drift ... pretty much did Paps role but with number 6 on his back as I saw it.
He and Paps are bloody abrasive, stick their heads in all the dark places in rucks and mauls, have big engines and leave little out there. They look like natural (but novice) test "animals".
Backrow potential looks outrageous with a bit more experience ...
Blackadder plays 6 for the Crusaders,Razor did use him as a 7 in one
game this season.He has played most of his rugby at 6 although Foster did make the point the AB's see him as 7 cover.I was really impressed, thought he was huge on a detailed rewatch. I think he set out to give 100% and he left it all out there.
In fact ... even at minutes 74-75 he hits 3 or 4 rucks including getting to one on the far left side. Then suddenly from about minute 76 on he looks out on his feet, seems sluggish, even a bit wobbly, and heads to the right wing. I could be wrong but it looked think he'd given 105% throughout, hit the wall about then and was "hanging in there" from that point on.
Stats someone used to publish on GAGR on tackles and ruck involvements per quarter for locks and the backrows suggested that even those with amazing engines have to pace themselves by lowering their workrate and involvement and have one "quieter" quarter per game when they're playing the full 80 minutes. It was very consistent.
Not sure if this is planned or experience ... I guess both, as you'd need to adjust to the in-game situation? But you could see it even for players with huge engines like McCaw, Retallick, Hooper.
Experience in IMO,Learning to pace yourself comes with more game time,As you play more the game slows down for you, if that makes sense,Then you are looking wider within the game and your vision expands instead of having the tunnel vision of inexperience.
It gives you ability to read situations ahead of time a lot like a Dejavu as you recognise a previous game situation you have been in,or read what might happen ahead of a phase.Then you learn to short cut game situations to preserve your energy without losing your workrate or effectiveness.experience is huge in knowing how fast to go. Obviously i've never played at a really high level, but i've been lucky enough to play at a couple of different rep levels. What you find is the game just gets faster and faster. And when you first step up you can find yourself killing yourself trying to play like you would at a lower level (hit every ruck etc) when that's just not possible. The players around you are better, you just need to focus on doing less, better.
-
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@voodoo For this weekend I think I'd prefer to see Aoane, Paps, Ardie. Ardie and Paps to go absolutely nuts, whoever is more knackered gets to come off and have Jacobson come on to run through the exhausted boks and put that shoulder into some already struggling diaphragms.
Yep, I likes that. My back row was a fast forward to the whole squad being fit, Cane back and firing etc. I really like Jacobson though, and whilst I feel for Ardie, it just feels like his best number has double digits (no #12 jokes please...)
Agree with all of that including giving Jacobson a run at 8 with Ardie off the bench.
btw where does Ethan Blackadder normally start for the Crusaders?
I haven't followed him closely but he looks like a 7/6 to me rather than a 6/7 if you get my drift ... pretty much did Paps role but with number 6 on his back as I saw it.
He and Paps are bloody abrasive, stick their heads in all the dark places in rucks and mauls, have big engines and leave little out there. They look like natural (but novice) test "animals".
Backrow potential looks outrageous with a bit more experience ...
Blackadder plays 6 for the Crusaders,Razor did use him as a 7 in one
game this season.He has played most of his rugby at 6 although Foster did make the point the AB's see him as 7 cover.I was really impressed, thought he was huge on a detailed rewatch. I think he set out to give 100% and he left it all out there.
In fact ... even at minutes 74-75 he hits 3 or 4 rucks including getting to one on the far left side. Then suddenly from about minute 76 on he looks out on his feet, seems sluggish, even a bit wobbly, and heads to the right wing. I could be wrong but it looked think he'd given 105% throughout, hit the wall about then and was "hanging in there" from that point on.
Stats someone used to publish on GAGR on tackles and ruck involvements per quarter for locks and the backrows suggested that even those with amazing engines have to pace themselves by lowering their workrate and involvement and have one "quieter" quarter per game when they're playing the full 80 minutes. It was very consistent.
Not sure if this is planned or experience ... I guess both, as you'd need to adjust to the in-game situation? But you could see it even for players with huge engines like McCaw, Retallick, Hooper.
Experience in IMO,Learning to pace yourself comes with more game time,As you play more the game slows down for you, if that makes sense,Then you are looking wider within the game and your vision expands instead of having the tunnel vision of inexperience.
It gives you ability to read situations ahead of time a lot like a Dejavu as you recognise a previous game situation you have been in,or read what might happen ahead of a phase.Then you learn to short cut game situations to preserve your energy without losing your workrate or effectiveness.experience is huge in knowing how fast to go. Obviously i've never played at a really high level, but i've been lucky enough to play at a couple of different rep levels. What you find is the game just gets faster and faster. And when you first step up you can find yourself killing yourself trying to play like you would at a lower level (hit every ruck etc) when that's just not possible. The players around you are better, you just need to focus on doing less, better.
Yep thats exactly it you nailed it.You of course would have noticed the speed of the game and skill set goes up at Rep level.And you do go harder with less control to keep up,Once the brain adjusts to the speed of doing skill sets quicker you settle down and learn to find your zone within the game.
Not being an All Black I can only guess at the rate of the levels of Profesional Rugby. Only having played U19 and below Rep level Rugby and club.
I am lucky having made my living out of playing and coaching cricket same thing the game speeds up the higher you play. The better players adjust some never do and fall away. -
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
We've got plenty of good ones.
On paper I agree.
I guess my point is that in practice our loosies look better as starters than how they have looked off of the bench (Blackadder made me think of this).
Sotutu last year, Blackadder and Jacobson this year - to me they've all looked better starting than coming off of the bench. From memory Papalii looked good off of the bench last year but only got 1 chance I think and it was against Aus in Sydney for 15 minutes when the game as a contest was already over so it's hard to gauge.
-
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
From memory Papalii looked good off of the bench last year
I just wanted to note again quite how good a season Dalton has had. Starting AB 7, and absolutely no controversy. Massive for teh Blues all season, and just quietly playing the house down. When he goes missing, you usually find him doing shit work around teh rucks on a rewatch. And he's 23.
Funniest thing I've heard from him is when he talked about how to pronounce his surname (he said 'papalee'), then had to come back and say 'Mum said it's actually Poppalee'ee'. Classic.
We are absolutely blessed in the loosies right now, it's awesome. ScoBa can stay at lock FFS
-
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Don't do that Vaai. Twunt
Just watching replay. What was the issue here?
-
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Don't do that Vaai. Twunt
Just watching replay. What was the issue here?
Went he didn't touch the ball down and waited like a twunt.
-
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Don't do that Vaai. Twunt
Just watching replay. What was the issue here?
Went he didn't touch the ball down and waited like a twunt.
Practicing for the boks as they will all sit down and have a breather. Could maybe burn off 10 minutes I reckon.
-
@rancid-schnitzel yeah twice, wasn't it. Just looked stupid IMO, I think he got a helpful shove for his trouble both times.
-
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@rancid-schnitzel yeah twice, wasn't it. Just looked stupid IMO, I think he got a helpful shove for his trouble both times.
I'm all for it. Holding it was n two hands waiting to put it down, pretty safe and hey why not make the oppo work that little bit more, with the added bonus of getting in their head and making them do a silly "helpful shove".
-
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
From memory Papalii looked good off of the bench last year
I just wanted to note again quite how good a season Dalton has had. Starting AB 7, and absolutely no controversy. Massive for teh Blues all season, and just quietly playing the house down. When he goes missing, you usually find him doing shit work around teh rucks on a rewatch. And he's 23.
Funniest thing I've heard from him is when he talked about how to pronounce his surname (he said 'papalee'), then had to come back and say 'Mum said it's actually Poppalee'ee'. Classic.
We are absolutely blessed in the loosies right now, it's awesome. ScoBa can stay at lock FFS
Agree on every word. Especially that you see so much on rewatches you can't see live or on highlight reels.
Re Scoba and similar, the game is speeding up thanks to the new refereeing interpretations on ruck and turnover - requiring a more mobile, more balanced back row.
For England I suspect the days of a lock (Courtney Lawes) at 6 and a monolithic ball-carrier (Billy Vunipola) at 8 are fading ... maybe we see a new 6 being groomed plus Tom Curry at 7, Sam Simmonds at 8.
Equally, Eddie can be a stubborn dude so could be old skool Courtney Lawes and Billy Vunipola at 6 and 8 again!
The great thing about rugby is how many ways there are to win a match if you get your tactics right on the day.
-
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
The great thing about rugby is how many ways there are to win a match if you get your tactics right on the day.
A healthy game has more than one way to win. Grinding out a low scoring penalty fest, trying to out-shoot the opponents in a try bonanza, or just finding a relative strength that you just exploit over and over again. I don't want to see only open, running, athletes - there shoudl be more to the sport than that
-
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Don't do that Vaai. Twunt
Just watching replay. What was the issue here?
Went he didn't touch the ball down and waited like a twunt.
I agree with what he did, have a look the first Puma's player there just turned his back as soon as Vai'i crossed the line and didn't even try to put pressure on him, so happy got Vai'i to have a breather!
-
@nzzp Yeah, anyone who talks about reducing the role of the set-pieces or mauling doesn't really "get" rugby.
For me part of the problem is the need to improve media coverage on scrums. NFL is basically ALL tactical set pieces with commentators set up for that. Rugby has a big, sometimes predominant set piece component but this needs to be "sold" - specialist commentary and camera angles to explain wtf is happening in scrums. Spider cam is good. Replays and commentary is very hit/miss depending on the broadcaster.
I really like the thinking behind the new ruck laws. None of this "having to survive to clean-out by a 120kg monster" stuff. If you are onside, can get your hands on the ball fast, lift the ball, support your body-weight ... it's yours / penalty
McCaw would be unstoppable again, back to "v1 Ritchie" mode. F*ck he really was good, they had to wait until he retired before they did this? 
-
-
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Equally, Eddie can be a stubborn dude so could be old skool Courtney Lawes and Billy Vunipola at 6 and 8 again!
Rumour has it Billy is not in the squad
Training squad Billy is NOT in - ditto George Ford - but with Eddie it's hard to judge.
I suspect Vunipola is really out, whereas he may want to give Marcus Smith "space" to develop at 10 by running things in the training squad, continue to have a look at him, but still recall Ford downstream.
Reading that Australian elf's mind is pretty hard. Expect the unexpected.
-
@dan54 said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Don't do that Vaai. Twunt
Just watching replay. What was the issue here?
Went he didn't touch the ball down and waited like a twunt.
I agree with what he did, have a look the first Puma's player there just turned his back as soon as Vai'i crossed the line and didn't even try to put pressure on him, so happy got Vai'i to have a breather!
Yeah nah this wasn't the final of the Olympic sevens and it was totally unnecessary. He looked like a twunt. It's not like he's played much recently anyway so he can relax on the bench.
-
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@dan54 said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Don't do that Vaai. Twunt
Just watching replay. What was the issue here?
Went he didn't touch the ball down and waited like a twunt.
I agree with what he did, have a look the first Puma's player there just turned his back as soon as Vai'i crossed the line and didn't even try to put pressure on him, so happy got Vai'i to have a breather!
Yeah nah this wasn't the final of the Olympic sevens and it was totally unnecessary. He looked like a twunt. It's not like he's played much recently anyway so he can relax on the bench.
lol unbunch your panties
the 2nd was a totally fine. they had come off about 10 minutes deep in their territory, scored a quick one, the game was over, and no one was interested in him.
The biggest of storms in the smallest of teacups.
Jesus the shit people think is "unacceptable" on a footy field...
