Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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Catching up on the last few pages of this thread is a funny read in the cold light of day.
Conspiracy theories abound with statements of fact around things we have zero idea about.
We don’t know what was said at interviews by any party or even the NZRU processes.
I agree though that the quality from the support coaches has been low. Maybe Foster is ultimately responsible but I do feel that he has been let down by his lieutenants (or overestimated their abilities).
The team he assembled never excited me and the continued selection of McLeod was as baffling as his initial appointment.
I think we have one guy trying to implement a defence that no one else uses because it doesn’t play the percentages. Another who seems to have a strong voice in team selection which means a lack of consistency. I don’t even know what Mooar brings to the table as I can’t find it. It certainly isn’t attack patterns. -
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
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@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
I would still like a team with Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown in it. Though I also wouldn't mind them having a look at Barnes who did the Chiefs forwards over last couple of years and did good stuff with the Naki this year. But it doesn't make a lot of difference what we think, we not really in the know are we, and just looking from outside.
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@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
I would still like a team with Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown in it. Though I also wouldn't mind them having a look at Barnes who did the Chiefs forwards over last couple of years and did good stuff with the Naki this year. But it doesn't make a lot of difference what we think, we not really in the know are we, and just looking from outside.
Wipe Joseph/ Brown from your mind. They have the yen and are unlikely to walk from existing arrangements.
I do agree that in an ideal world JJ on forwards and Brown on attack with Razor on strategies and management would be a fine team.
I always though Barnes was a weak spot in the Chiefs group but maybe I misunderstood his impact. -
@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.
How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?Realistically Jase Ryan and Razor are a package deal. Swap him and Coventry.
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@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
you put more thought into that post than the AB did when actually appointing someone
Interesting that one of our great midfielders turned coach would have some ideas around one of the key roles in a defensive line
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@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
This is a shit thing to say, but given that the breakdown mentioned both of those names, and likely have some access to the knowledge about who will carry the can, I would say that is the political decision possibly already made.
That's not to say that it would be a bad decision if it happens, in fact it's the opposite. Mooar should never have been hired in the first place, and Stormy has been really average in comparison to his international peers.
It is time for us to look at who is available on the international market regardless of whether they are a kiwi or not.
Can anyone say the attack looks like someone is in charge of it?
Why is nearly every other team in the world using a rush defence? Giving ground with phases and realigning to take advantage of a counterattack isn't worth it if your opposition are well-drilled and don't isolate themselves. Even worse if they're competent enough to have bodies in motion making the defence have to make decisions while they're running from one side of the field to another for a counterattack opportunity that's never going to come.
Both of them appear to be clowns so if someone else is available, competent and experienced, why wouldn't we take them? This shouldn't be a "jobs for New Zealanders only" situation. It should be "best available so the All Blacks keep winning" situation. If that means cueball comes back into the fold as defence coach, great.
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What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level. Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith. Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
It's like the best F1 team being driven by the pit crew despite having a host of great drivers available.
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@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
That would be a good start, but really depends upon who their replacements are.
Do we have any decent defence coaches in NZ? Do we have any decent attack coaches who are also available?
Is it time for John Mitchell to come back and go from zero to hero?
Could be.
His life is a journey. -
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
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@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
At no stage did I say it was possible to replicate it at this present moment, I was merely pointing out the stark contrast. Further, none have won anything as HEAD COACHES at super level. Hope that clears things up.
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@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
In the last few years of super the best defence records (tackle %s etc) came from the Blues if I'm not mistaken. That was with Umaga running the D.
I have no idea if his patterns would help, I don't recall it being a rush nor a soak. I wonder if his non naming in the MP coaching team is due in part to him keeping options open?
Just trying to find alternatives.
Highlanders have shown the most variety on attack but when it happens it has Brown's fingerprints all over it.
Tom Coventry is the guy I think most would agree is the best at creating hard forward packs, he just often doesn't have the right mix of players.How does a team of Razor, Scott Hansen, Coventry and Umaga sound?
I did not know that, and overall interesting post, thanks.
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@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
What's striking is that none of coaches have been a head coach at international level.
None of the candidates had, apart from Joseph.
Now compare that with Henry, Hanson and Smith.
That was a unique situation unlikely to be repeated again. It's worth mentioning that all three went overseas to coach before returning to NZ. Back to your first point.
Even worse is that none have had success at Super level.
Plumtree, Mooar and McLeod were all assistant coaches in teams that did win SR. Plumtree also coached in Wales, Ireland and SA so had the most international coaching experience of anyone.
and he did quite well overseas, didn't he?
I don't know very much about the success of Mooar and McLeod. -
@nostrildamus McLoed was with the Highlanders before this and did get a bit of credit for turning us around along with Joseph and Brown
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@frank said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
That would be a good start, but really depends upon who their replacements are.
Do we have any decent defence coaches in NZ? Do we have any decent attack coaches who are also available?
Is it time for John Mitchell to come back and go from zero to hero?
Could be.
His life is a journey.I'm not sure if you are 5% or 95% serious but his AB teams did have some good attributes and he seems to have been very useful when not as head coach. I wonder if he had ego issues, less so a drinking problem (if an alcoholic he looked a very fit alcoholic) but I suspect he may have burnt some bridges at (old) NZRU?
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@kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@nostrildamus McLoed was with the Highlanders before this and did get a bit of credit for turning us around along with Joseph and Brown
thanks .. so if the assistant coaches had good previous records, I wonder if there is any other factor that can stop me looking at the head coach position (even I am sick of my Foster obsession, I don't wish the guy ill, I just don't see a big shiny trophy light at the end of the tunnel and I so want the ABs to face and beat England)...
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@crucial said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@stodders said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
My prediction: Foster will stay. Mooar and McLeod will carry the can.
This is a shit thing to say, but given that the breakdown mentioned both of those names, and likely have some access to the knowledge about who will carry the can, I would say that is the political decision possibly already made.
That's not to say that it would be a bad decision if it happens, in fact it's the opposite. Mooar should never have been hired in the first place, and Stormy has been really average in comparison to his international peers.
It is time for us to look at who is available on the international market regardless of whether they are a kiwi or not.
Any Australian Rugby League defence coaches out of contract? Ireland's head coach is from RL, England's attack coach is from RL, France's defence coach is from RL. Maybe the ABs could bring in some ideas from RL too, especially if they are looking at a different, more offensive defensive system?
Or maybe a South African (sacrilege) could help either the defence or the forwards?
In terms of attack coach, Nick Evans is doing a pretty good job at Harlequins
We need to get over this intellectual parochialism when it comes to our rugby coaches. We don't own all of the game's IP and greatest minds. FFS, our greater ever era was when we had an Australian ex-Aussie Rules player as our skills coach.
Doesn’t this comment contradict itself?
I don’t think we have a block we have simply decided on others.Not really - Mick the Kick was a real anomaly and we he sought a more enhanced role elsewhere in NZ rugby he was turned down basically because he was Australian. Pretty much the exception that proves the rule
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@junior and who now, will want to tie thier wagon to Foster?
Fair question and I don't know the answer.
However, we know from the two past head coach appointments that it helps to already be involved in the setup as an assistant. So, I think someone who has that ambition, but is probably not strong enough at this stage to form his own ticket, might be interested in getting involved now as an assistant. Assuming Foster sees out his 4 years, I can definitely see Plumtree, for example, throwing his hat into the ring to take over in 2024.
