Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@steven-harris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
who has Foster developed into a world class player …?.
Papalii and Blackadder come to mind , but they have really only got their opportunities because of injury.Samisoni to me would be the only player that might fit this category - Jordan potentially the other.
Papalii may get there in time but he needs more exposure to physical sides like Boks, England & France.
Blackadder has a high work rate but not enough impact to be world class. The problems at 6 remain.
I agree. I was also thinking today that despite many (including me) originally thinking we had good depth and ability in the loose forwards, I still to this day don't know who is best in each position and which combination works best together.
I think Ardie and Akira don't work well together at 8 and 6 (and probably at 7 and 6), Cane and Sotutu basically can only start because they are specialist, Ethan has the best workrate and can really cover the field but is not very effective, Ardie can be swamped at 8 but look great against softer forwards, Luke J can tackle hard but seems to go missing and it is not clear to me whether he is better at 6 or 8, while Akira can mentally switch off but can also do great things and move or stop large bodies but is lazy at the ruck.
Then there is Shannon, who to me is behind the pack but may be the top 6 as seen by the coaches. Dalton has arguably played the best but is he the best 7 or in the top group of 6s?
And we don't seem to have a clear 8, Hoskins has done well at cameos but doesn't seem favoured....
And which combos? Have they played the Auckland trio together? Would a looser but athletic player at 6 or 8 be best matched with Cane? Who is the best at tackling, lineouts, turnovers? And who can only start and is not suitable off the bench?
The strange thing is we can field 7 or more loosies but I still don't know the preferred players or combo.
Imagine this (given they should combine well):
6 A Ioane
7 Papilii
8 Sotutu
bench: Savea or Blackadder (not good 7 cover but can take 6 and Ioane move to 8 if required)
OR (as the above team may be dynamic but not as hardworking apart from Paps):
6 Blackadder
7 Cane (or Savea)
8 Jacobson
bench: Papilii (or Savea, but former doesn't cover 8?)Seems to me, if we agree Savea is better at 7 than 8 for top forward-oriented sides, he is best off the bench given his speed, or there is no place for Cane (who is best starting rather than bench).
I'd also argue that Frizell isn't very dynamic off the bench and is not clearly better at 6 than Jacobson or A. Ioane.
I do wonder if Papilii may be better or as good at 7 as Savea or Cane (posters here may argue allround for Savea then Paps then Cane or for tackling: Cane Paps then Savea, then again Savea is arguably the most dynamic and versatile). Ok, I go back to my suggestion Savea off the bench, and I ditch Frizell...
6 Jacobson or Ioane (some may prefer Blackadder)
7 Paps or Cane
8 Jacobson or Sotutu
bench: SaveaI'm a bit closer, I'd prefer Cane or Papilii at 7, Sotutu (myself) at 8, and hmm Ioane for 40-60 minutes at 6 (to keep him fresh). But then I can't cover 6 with Savea off the bench. I guess if Ioane Papilii Jacobson I could play Savea there but do I have enough ferocious ruck movers? (Something Blackadder can do, well at least energetically).
I'm kind of stumped here. Suggestions? -
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
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The big mistake with all of this is the timing of the appointment of the AB coach up to 2023.
Should have happened after the NH tour. Particularly with Covid happening.
What with this and the SL deal fiasco I have no faith in NZR at all.
Where's Razor -
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
The big mistake with all of this is the timing of the appointment of the AB coach up to 2023.
Should have happened after the NH tour. Particularly with Covid happening.
What with this and the SL deal fiasco I have no faith in NZR at all.
Where's RazorI wonder if Fozz has a performance clause? Probably not hard set, the NZRFU I am sure will be loathe to fire the guy they just gave a contract extension to
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
The big mistake with all of this is the timing of the appointment of the AB coach up to 2023.
Should have happened after the NH tour. Particularly with Covid happening.
What with this and the SL deal fiasco I have no faith in NZR at all.
Where's RazorThe funny thing about that (this should probably be in the other thread) is that it sounds like the NZRU was somehow forced into getting him signed (they said something about clarity for the coaching team). Why they would need that, I don't know, as all of the assistants are quite easily replaceable, and the HC is very few people's first choice.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring. -
The scary thing is there has been no improvement in performance over the last 2 years.
No clarity of player positions. No clarity of game plan. Frustration. Not to mention the financial side of things -
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@arhs said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think we need to look for a big burly number 6 and a partner for ALB in midfield most of all. Could be a big opportunity in 2022 for Tom Robinson and Samepeni Finau. Can only play 2 of Cane Paps and Ardie in same trio and need a big busy unit to complement them. Blackadder Jacobson and Akira all similar to me and add value but I think we might find better if we want to dominate.
How would RTS go in midfield and how well does Goodhue come back? Tupaea has limited tactical vision at top level currently and Havili is more a stopgap. Rieko is a far better winger.
The next wave of props, like Williams and Norris might be 2 or 3 years away and same for 10s.Perfect. 2 years away is RWC 2023. Timing could not be better.
You look at that 1995 team and that could be the truth, except we didn't win.
Generally speaking (in fact, always speaking looking at past winners), WC winning teams have set combinations where everyone knows their role.
SA lost 57-0 2 years before winning RWC2019. With the majority of the same players in place. So tactics and coaching can make a difference.
For instance, de Allende and Am were not the Bok midfield in 2017 and only 4 of the starting pack went on to the world cup, though there are 4 players on the bench (Kitschoff, Nyankane, De Jaager and PSDT) who would become, along with Pollard at flyhalf and DDA at 12, starters in 2019. So not exactly settled combos prior to 2 years out from world cup.
My point? Combos have to be selected now. The time for experimentation is done. If Foster doesn't know enough about the players he's worked with in last 2 years (and in some cases the last 6), then he never will.
This was the Bok squad in that 2017 loss:
15Andries Coetzee, FB
14Raymond Rhule, W
13Jesse Kriel, C
12Jan Serfontein, C
11Courtnall Skosan, W
10Elton Jantjies, FH
9Francois Hougaard, SH
1Tendai Mtawarira, P
2Malcolm Marx, H
3Ruan Dreyer, P
4Eben Etzebeth, L
5Franco Mostert, L
6Siya Kolisi, FL
7Jean-Luc du Preez, FL
8Uzair Cassiem, N8REPLACEMENTS
16Bongi Mbonambi, R
17Steven Kitshoff, R
18Trevor Nyakane, R
19Lood de Jager, R
20Pieter-Steph du Toit, R
21Rudy Paige, R
22Handre Pollard, R
23Damian de Allende, R -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
-
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Ok is there any player out there who could shore up a gap we have, who is possibly better than what we have in that position...
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@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
NZRU need to decide if they want to win the World Cup or not.
We have no chance with the current coaching setup. Time for a big decision.
Succinctly put.
-
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Ok is there any player out there who could shore up a gap we have, who is possibly better than what we have in that position...
Luatua at 6
Vito another option at 6/8
Maori Jesus at 12 (Ngatai btw)
Laumape at 12 also another option -
I don't buy into this, "we don't have the players" or "X is shite and Y is only good in SR" type comments. Without doubt, these are the best players we have at the moment (except the Northland ginger and a Ta$man center...in my opinion). They dominate the SR and/or have dominated the international scene for quite a while. You don't suddenly become shite overnight!
And we all on this board basically agreed that these were our best players until it all turned to custard!
It is obvious to me the problem. It is the stale, easy-to-predict approach we take into the games. This approach is also in a bizarre way self-destructing. The game has moved on but the NZ game has not. It is that simple. Foster I believe is not the person to lead us from the glut but if he hasn't seen the writing on the wall yet he never will. However, if he is still the coach next year, I will be hoping he can climb this mountain (which is in part his own making) and change the blueprint to give the ABs a chance in 2023. -
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@old-samurai-jack I would also add its a predetermined game plan…fozzie had decided how he wanted to play before he even picked his squad rather than deciding a game plan the played to their strengths, he also tries to play the same no matter who he has on the field, bridge is not the same kind of 11 as Reece or ioane for example
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Ok is there any player out there who could shore up a gap we have, who is possibly better than what we have in that position...
Luatua at 6
Vito another option at 6/8
Maori Jesus at 12 (Ngatai btw)
Laumape at 12 also another optionta I forgot about Ngatai.
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This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Would Piutau qualify for England selection on residency time by now?
