Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
-
The scary thing is there has been no improvement in performance over the last 2 years.
No clarity of player positions. No clarity of game plan. Frustration. Not to mention the financial side of things -
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@arhs said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think we need to look for a big burly number 6 and a partner for ALB in midfield most of all. Could be a big opportunity in 2022 for Tom Robinson and Samepeni Finau. Can only play 2 of Cane Paps and Ardie in same trio and need a big busy unit to complement them. Blackadder Jacobson and Akira all similar to me and add value but I think we might find better if we want to dominate.
How would RTS go in midfield and how well does Goodhue come back? Tupaea has limited tactical vision at top level currently and Havili is more a stopgap. Rieko is a far better winger.
The next wave of props, like Williams and Norris might be 2 or 3 years away and same for 10s.Perfect. 2 years away is RWC 2023. Timing could not be better.
You look at that 1995 team and that could be the truth, except we didn't win.
Generally speaking (in fact, always speaking looking at past winners), WC winning teams have set combinations where everyone knows their role.
SA lost 57-0 2 years before winning RWC2019. With the majority of the same players in place. So tactics and coaching can make a difference.
For instance, de Allende and Am were not the Bok midfield in 2017 and only 4 of the starting pack went on to the world cup, though there are 4 players on the bench (Kitschoff, Nyankane, De Jaager and PSDT) who would become, along with Pollard at flyhalf and DDA at 12, starters in 2019. So not exactly settled combos prior to 2 years out from world cup.
My point? Combos have to be selected now. The time for experimentation is done. If Foster doesn't know enough about the players he's worked with in last 2 years (and in some cases the last 6), then he never will.
This was the Bok squad in that 2017 loss:
15Andries Coetzee, FB
14Raymond Rhule, W
13Jesse Kriel, C
12Jan Serfontein, C
11Courtnall Skosan, W
10Elton Jantjies, FH
9Francois Hougaard, SH
1Tendai Mtawarira, P
2Malcolm Marx, H
3Ruan Dreyer, P
4Eben Etzebeth, L
5Franco Mostert, L
6Siya Kolisi, FL
7Jean-Luc du Preez, FL
8Uzair Cassiem, N8REPLACEMENTS
16Bongi Mbonambi, R
17Steven Kitshoff, R
18Trevor Nyakane, R
19Lood de Jager, R
20Pieter-Steph du Toit, R
21Rudy Paige, R
22Handre Pollard, R
23Damian de Allende, R -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
-
-
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Ok is there any player out there who could shore up a gap we have, who is possibly better than what we have in that position...
-
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
NZRU need to decide if they want to win the World Cup or not.
We have no chance with the current coaching setup. Time for a big decision.
Succinctly put.
-
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Ok is there any player out there who could shore up a gap we have, who is possibly better than what we have in that position...
Luatua at 6
Vito another option at 6/8
Maori Jesus at 12 (Ngatai btw)
Laumape at 12 also another option -
I don't buy into this, "we don't have the players" or "X is shite and Y is only good in SR" type comments. Without doubt, these are the best players we have at the moment (except the Northland ginger and a Ta$man center...in my opinion). They dominate the SR and/or have dominated the international scene for quite a while. You don't suddenly become shite overnight!
And we all on this board basically agreed that these were our best players until it all turned to custard!
It is obvious to me the problem. It is the stale, easy-to-predict approach we take into the games. This approach is also in a bizarre way self-destructing. The game has moved on but the NZ game has not. It is that simple. Foster I believe is not the person to lead us from the glut but if he hasn't seen the writing on the wall yet he never will. However, if he is still the coach next year, I will be hoping he can climb this mountain (which is in part his own making) and change the blueprint to give the ABs a chance in 2023. -
-
@old-samurai-jack I would also add its a predetermined game plan…fozzie had decided how he wanted to play before he even picked his squad rather than deciding a game plan the played to their strengths, he also tries to play the same no matter who he has on the field, bridge is not the same kind of 11 as Reece or ioane for example
-
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Ok is there any player out there who could shore up a gap we have, who is possibly better than what we have in that position...
Luatua at 6
Vito another option at 6/8
Maori Jesus at 12 (Ngatai btw)
Laumape at 12 also another optionta I forgot about Ngatai.
-
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Would Piutau qualify for England selection on residency time by now?
-
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I don't buy into this, "we don't have the players" or "X is shite and Y is only good in SR" type comments. Without doubt, these are the best players we have at the moment (except the Northland ginger and a Ta$man center...in my opinion). They dominate the SR and/or have dominated the international scene for quite a while. You don't suddenly become shite overnight!
And we all on this board basically agreed that these were our best players until it all turned to custard!
It is obvious to me the problem. It is the stale, easy-to-predict approach we take into the games. This approach is also in a bizarre way self-destructing. The game has moved on but the NZ game has not. It is that simple. Foster I believe is not the person to lead us from the glut but if he hasn't seen the writing on the wall yet he never will. However, if he is still the coach next year, I will be hoping he can climb this mountain (which is in part his own making) and change the blueprint to give the ABs a chance in 2023.All good points.
It's true, we have nowhere near the talent we had in 2015 or the years preceding. We still have some talent though, and I would hazard a guess that many international coaches would absolutely love to have some of our loosies and backs in their squads.
But, we don't have a team good enough now to just show up, play at speed, move the ball around bit and win. And this is why coaching, selection and game plans matter. We were played off the park for 60 minutes last night and 80 minutes the week before. But we actually had chances to win both matches. A better coached and selected team would have won both matches when presented with those opportunities. Hell, a better coached and selected team would not have been solely reliant on those opportunities to win!
-
@tewaio In 2004 Henry came in and said "we need a revolution in how we play, like after the 68 Lions tour". We changed our forward play and everything else. Since 2015, Hansen and his descendants have been so arrogant about playing like we own the ball and don't have to adjust. It's infuriating.
-
It's also working with the SR coaches to get the experience in a position, identify deficiencies and work on them. The AB coach can only do so much and it's a joint effort. It seems to have worked with Akira - he's a way better player and that may have come about from Foster & McDonald working together.
-
@nevorian said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nevorian said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Things do seem to have built nicely at super level in the last couple of years (despite interrupted comp)
Built nicely by what measure? By playing themselves who all play nearly the same style?
That’s why I said ‘seemed to have built’.
The Super comp has been successful in building a false sense of well being
That was the benefit of playing the Saffa sides, the Aussie sides and the mix of others, it exposes NZ players and coaches to different styles and game plans.
It has held us in pretty good stead for quite a few years, but two years of basically playing local derbies and then playing the Aussies a thousand times, it has taken in my view taken a toll on our development
-
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
The scary thing is there has been no improvement in performance over the last 2 years.
Goes back further than 2 year - 4 at least.
-
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nevorian said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nevorian said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Things do seem to have built nicely at super level in the last couple of years (despite interrupted comp)
Built nicely by what measure? By playing themselves who all play nearly the same style?
That’s why I said ‘seemed to have built’.
The Super comp has been successful in building a false sense of well being
That was the benefit of playing the Saffa sides, the Aussie sides and the mix of others, it exposes NZ players and coaches to different styles and game plans.
It has held us in pretty good stead for quite a few years, but two years of basically playing local derbies and then playing the Aussies a thousand times, it has taken in my view taken a toll on our development
So without those different styles, where do the ABs get the experience from to be able to develop the players? Are the Junior ABs making a comeback?
Or will there be more onus on the SR coaches to develop their own playing styles so that the players can be challenged by the latest trends domestically?
-
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Who gets sacked first, Solskjær or Foster?
FYI Solskjær has just been given the sack. Praying they will pull the lever on the Muppet too.
And Man U have had 6 coaches in the last 7 years , including a messiah in Mourinho.
If sacking coaches was the easy answer to everything, Man U would have won everything in sight since 2014.
-
@victor-meldrew
Not sacking underperforming coaches certainly isn't the answer either.
