AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass
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@mn5 said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@bovidae said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
From what I have read and seen on video Whineray was like the Bull Allen of his era - mobile, athletic but not the best scrummager. He had a lineout move named after him for that reason. An outstanding captain too.
Yeah - McLean writes that, "there was just a touch of truth to Toft's observation that he was the world's best prop and the world's worst packer". But, otherwise he's effusive in his praise - unhesitatingly acclaims him as NZ's greatest captain and brilliant around the park.
Problem with picking lots of these old guys is that Whineray weighed less than 100kgs - so he's sort of Anton-Lienert Brown playing prop.
Even when you come to Michael Jones, his AB profile lists him as 98kgs - which I'm guessing dates from his time at 7.
These days, he'd have to pack another 10 kgs on to play openside and that's going to affect his speed and endurance. We'll probably never see a 7 playing like him again in the ABs, because you have to get too big to be that mobile.
Christian Cullen at 85kgs is basically DMac sized and is going to be similarly rag-dolled on occasion if he's playing today.
Highly doubtful, Cullens strength and conditioning was exceptional even by todays standards. He did sometimes get smashed but he always got right back up.
Highly doubtful. 25 years of science is going to flatten Cully.
He might get back up, but so does DMac.
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@taniwharugby Yeah - rugby has evolved.
With possibly a tiny handful of exceptions - the best ever All Blacks have played within the past 10 years.
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@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@mn5 said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@bovidae said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
From what I have read and seen on video Whineray was like the Bull Allen of his era - mobile, athletic but not the best scrummager. He had a lineout move named after him for that reason. An outstanding captain too.
Yeah - McLean writes that, "there was just a touch of truth to Toft's observation that he was the world's best prop and the world's worst packer". But, otherwise he's effusive in his praise - unhesitatingly acclaims him as NZ's greatest captain and brilliant around the park.
Problem with picking lots of these old guys is that Whineray weighed less than 100kgs - so he's sort of Anton-Lienert Brown playing prop.
Even when you come to Michael Jones, his AB profile lists him as 98kgs - which I'm guessing dates from his time at 7.
These days, he'd have to pack another 10 kgs on to play openside and that's going to affect his speed and endurance. We'll probably never see a 7 playing like him again in the ABs, because you have to get too big to be that mobile.
Christian Cullen at 85kgs is basically DMac sized and is going to be similarly rag-dolled on occasion if he's playing today.
Highly doubtful, Cullens strength and conditioning was exceptional even by todays standards. He did sometimes get smashed but he always got right back up.
Highly doubtful. 25 years of science is going to flatten Cully.
He might get back up, but so does DMac.
He’d be fine. He spent games tackling Jonah and Joeli and did well. Go back to FBs before Cully though and then you’d find guys who’d get trampled and rag dolled.
I think the 25 years of science thing is a myth. Cullen had bruisers as big as Ieremia, Umaga, Vidiri ( briefly ) all over 100kg as teammates then of course Jonah at around 120kg.
Who in the current AB backline is as big as these guys ? Ioane ( still probably smaller than Rokocoko, H Gear and J Savea ) and J Barrett ( and he only hits 100kg cos he’s about 25 feet tall )
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@bovidae said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
I remember seeing Ian Clarke at Waihi Beach in the 1990s and I couldn't believe how small he was for a former prop. He was listed as 96 kg in his playing days, and was much smaller than Don.
I remember when I was a kid in the 70s , all the props used to be listed at 16 stone give or take a few pounds ( around 100 kilos )
Then Gary knight came along and he was listed at 17 stone ( 108 kilos ) it seemed huge at the time
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@winger said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
The whiteboard session that proved Ma'a Nonu as an All Blacks great
Everyone knows about the greatness of former All Blacks midfielder Ma'a Nonu on the field, but few know the impact he made off the park.
He was probably our best player in 2015 and even though DC got the accolades in the final, Ma'a also had some very big and influential moments in that match
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@rotated said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@booboo said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Fuck all the way off!
Peak Kaino/MCaw/Read (2010 version ... they operated just under peak in 2011) was easily not just the best All Blac loose forward trio ever but probably the best alll time.
Way under peak in 2011 after Read was injured in Brisbane and McCaw having a broken foot.
That 2004-2006 run including the Lions sweep and Grand Slam is maybe too far in the past now but I can't think of a test during that period where that trio were outplayed - except for Rustenburg.
Even then, that test came down to a penalty with a minute or so to go against Rodders.
We weren’t great that day, but we still played pretty well to neutralise much of what the Boks threw at us and our loose trio were a big part of that
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@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@booboo Not even Richard
I waited a day before replying.
But my alter ego isn't biting....
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Still makes me laugh.
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@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@taniwharugby Yeah - rugby has evolved.
With possibly a tiny handful of exceptions - the best ever All Blacks have played within the past 10 years.
Guys like Cully, Jonah, JK, Wilson, Bunce, Brooke, M Jones, Fitzy and Hayman to name just a few are more than a tiny handful.
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@junior It sucked that Nonu didn't win World Rugby Player of the Year in 2015, but what made it worse was that he wasn't even nominated. IMO, he was a level above everyone that was nominated.
He wasn't only the best Test player that year, he was also the best Super Rugby player that year too. Hard to believe that he had that sort of season when he was 33.
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@dice said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@junior It sucked that Nonu didn't win World Rugby Player of the Year in 2015, but what made it worse was that he wasn't even nominated. IMO, he was a level above everyone that was nominated.
He wasn't only the best Test player that year, he was also the best Super Rugby player that year too. Hard to believe that he had that sort of season when he was 33.
Underrated his whole career in all honesty when he’s far and away the best 12 the ABs have ever had
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@mn5 said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@taniwharugby Yeah - rugby has evolved.
With possibly a tiny handful of exceptions - the best ever All Blacks have played within the past 10 years.
Guys like Cully, Jonah, JK, Wilson, Bunce, Brooke, M Jones, Fitzy and Hayman to name just a few are more than a tiny handful.
You may be misinterpreting my point.
Cully, Brooke, Jones and Fitzy are all too small to be the best now. They would all be rag-dolled.
JK is from the amateur era - his unusual size for that era would be totally nullified - he'd now be a smallish winger.
Hayman, maybe. Jonah, maybe.
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@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@mn5 said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@taniwharugby Yeah - rugby has evolved.
With possibly a tiny handful of exceptions - the best ever All Blacks have played within the past 10 years.
Guys like Cully, Jonah, JK, Wilson, Bunce, Brooke, M Jones, Fitzy and Hayman to name just a few are more than a tiny handful.
You may be misinterpreting my point.
Cully, Brooke, Jones and Fitzy are all too small to be the best now. They would all be rag-dolled.
JK is from the amateur era - his unusual size for that era would be totally nullified - he'd now be a smallish winger.
Hayman, maybe. Jonah, maybe.
disagree
The real old times yes. Maybe even the 80s old timers
But the 90s guys, with modern diets and training would be the same size as these units now. Before that even the food and weights aren't getting you big enough
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..and some average players would be better than previous generations greats.
I'm not sure thats the best way to judge a best ever side. It all depends on your criteria.
I think it's valid to include loads of players from previous generations. Some players completely changed the way the game is played for instance. Or you can talk about players who were so far ahead of their contemporaries etc etc
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@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@mn5 said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@chris-b said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@taniwharugby Yeah - rugby has evolved.
With possibly a tiny handful of exceptions - the best ever All Blacks have played within the past 10 years.
Guys like Cully, Jonah, JK, Wilson, Bunce, Brooke, M Jones, Fitzy and Hayman to name just a few are more than a tiny handful.
You may be misinterpreting my point.
Cully, Brooke, Jones and Fitzy are all too small to be the best now. They would all be rag-dolled.
JK is from the amateur era - his unusual size for that era would be totally nullified - he'd now be a smallish winger.
Hayman, maybe. Jonah, maybe.
I like how you’ve saved your most ridiculous point for last.
Jonah still had about 10kg on our next biggest ever winger ( Savea off the top of my head )
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@dice he was exceptional in 2015 and was robbed of the 2015 WPOTY title. Nonu was the complete player by the end of his international career, and we can all probably agree that no one has come close to performing to his standard in the 12 jersey since. (Apart from maybe SBW).
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@canes4life said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@dice he was exceptional in 2015 and was robbed of the 2015 WPOTY title. Nonu was the complete player by the end of his international career, and we can all probably agree that no one has come close to performing to his standard in the 12 jersey since. (Apart from maybe SBW).
SBW nowhere near Nonu, not even close. He can break, and offload. Couldn't kick and his defence relatively suspect, still had League brainfarts, and not even half his long pass
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@machpants SBW at his best was pretty darn good, obviously not to the standard of peak Nonu but the drop in quality between Nonu and SBW is a lot smaller than Nonu and those playing in the 12 jersey today.
