All Blacks vs Fiji 2
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@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.
Or down a level, depending on your point of view....
Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.Listened to John Hart talking to Darcy last night while on my morning constitutional.
He basically said we don't have the players to bash the opposition ( unless it's Aus) suggesting all the talk about being physical is lip service. Hence we're developing a different pattern.
Probably something in that. If we don't have bashers we can't invent them.
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.
Or down a level, depending on your point of view....
Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.Listened to John Hart talking to Darcy last night while on my morning constitutional.
He basically said we don't have the players to bash the opposition ( unless it's Aus) suggesting all the talk about being physical is lip service. Hence we're developing a different pattern.
Probably something in that. If we don't have bashers we can't invent them.
He's wrong. We have players like Moody, Taylor, Coles, Ofa, Pat T, Whitelock, Brodie, Akira, Cane etc that can all bash players up front.
Also, the expectation isn't that we will dominate other sides up front - that's just not really possible in todays game. The expectation is that we'll at least get some parity. If we do that then our backs get oodles more space to work with. If we don't the backs get the ball with defenders in their face and make errors.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.
Or down a level, depending on your point of view....
Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.the French system last night showed the folly of relying on that plan. By the time the ball gets to your wide runners the opposition are already in their face. You are then left with hope. Hope your 108kg loose forward can bust the tackle of the 100kg midfielder in his face, or hope they can sneak an offload (and hope your FB is there to take it). You need momentum in close to create that separation out wide.
Everyone knows this, it's how you create that momentum that's the question
Not quite everyone it seems
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.
Or down a level, depending on your point of view....
Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.the French system last night showed the folly of relying on that plan. By the time the ball gets to your wide runners the opposition are already in their face. You are then left with hope. Hope your 108kg loose forward can bust the tackle of the 100kg midfielder in his face, or hope they can sneak an offload (and hope your FB is there to take it). You need momentum in close to create that separation out wide.
Everyone knows this, it's how you create that momentum that's the question
If not for a last second brainfart in game 1, France would be playing for a series sweep on the weekend
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@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.
Or down a level, depending on your point of view....
Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.Listened to John Hart talking to Darcy last night while on my morning constitutional.
He basically said we don't have the players to bash the opposition ( unless it's Aus) suggesting all the talk about being physical is lip service. Hence we're developing a different pattern.
Probably something in that. If we don't have bashers we can't invent them.
He's wrong. We have players like Moody, Taylor, Coles, Ofa, Pat T, Whitelock, Brodie, Akira, Cane etc that can all bash players up front.
Also, the expectation isn't that we will dominate other sides up front - that's just not really possible in todays game. The expectation is that we'll at least get some parity. If we do that then our backs get oodles more space to work with. If we don't the backs get the ball with defenders in their face and make errors.
Pat T? At test level he has the “bash” of wet toilet paper.
My concern is more about defence and stopping forward momentum. Our problem for a number of years hasn’t been attacking systems it has been that when the opposition decide to play up the middle and don’t make mistakes they get easy momentum. We don’t have a Collins or Kaino to smash them back.
Our selections at 6 have not been geared to find this player either. Barret? Fifita? Frizzle?
Aoane’s USP is better in space (as is Savea). We need at least one tight loose forward with the others taking that role when we are being run at.
What we don’t need is loose forwards running themselves ragged covering for inside backs. -
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.
Or down a level, depending on your point of view....
Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.Listened to John Hart talking to Darcy last night while on my morning constitutional.
He basically said we don't have the players to bash the opposition ( unless it's Aus) suggesting all the talk about being physical is lip service. Hence we're developing a different pattern.
Probably something in that. If we don't have bashers we can't invent them.
He's wrong. We have players like Moody, Taylor, Coles, Ofa, Pat T, Whitelock, Brodie, Akira, Cane etc that can all bash players up front.
Also, the expectation isn't that we will dominate other sides up front - that's just not really possible in todays game. The expectation is that we'll at least get some parity. If we do that then our backs get oodles more space to work with. If we don't the backs get the ball with defenders in their face and make errors.
Yep. That final 2016 game against Ireland and the first Lions test showed the ABs can successfully dish it out up front. I don’t buy for a second that they don’t have the players to at least match the top teams in the physicality stakes.
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I see the loose forward out wide conversation has kicked off again. @muddyriver was quite succinct with his response on another thread
@muddyriver said in All Blacks 2021:
yea this is retarded. every team in NZ plays either 1-3-3-1 or slight variations of that.
so at any one time you have 2 guys playing that spot out wide1-3-3-1 is how you group your forwards, during phase play, on attack. Or a variation of it like 2-2-3-1 or 2-4-2. But the concept is still the same of spreading the forwards on attack.
I think I'm correct in saying most NZ sides use the players 6 & 7 or 6 & 2 on the fringes? A few years ago it was more likely to include the 8
(as an aside, Akira always played this role but has shifted from mostly playing 8 to mostly playing 6 around the same time sides started using the 6 wider)Some questions for those who are criticising Foster for using this pattern:
Can you think of a side that doesn't use a similar pattern on attack that they should be copying? Don't most sides use this now? If most teams use it then surely the breakdown problems from the weekend are caused by other issues?I have a theory on why this has popped up on the forum in the last few weeks. The game against Tonga did not look the same as a SR Aotearoa match despite the same basic pattern being used.
So what was the difference? Well the score was 102-0, it's fair to say the defence struggled.Plenty of the tries the AB were easy. Simple draw and pass as the Tongan's struggled to number up. Sometime the last man was a winger, midfielder and on a few occasions a loose forward with loads of space
It's not some crazy new plan. It was shitter defence making things look different.
The Blues absolutely use this pattern but you didn't see that crazy amount of space for the forwards out wide... because they were facing better quality defences (yes even the AU sides...)
In most cases if a Blues 6 was involved in a try it wasn't scoring themselves, it was an offload to a finisher. Thats seems to be the more common result against good defences.Last point - this positioning is not only about using a big guy on attack. It's also about securing the ball when the backline move breaks down. It gives the confidence to go wider when there is a guy who can shift bodies in a breakdown already there
There's plenty of other stuff to criticise Foster on. I don't see an issue here.
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@duluth you have missed the point I think.
I understand the pod system but what we are seeing is it being used in a different way in combo with the backs and the attack shape.
Instead of the 6 or 2 being wide to clean or carry if the cover has drifted they are finding themselves being the carrier in space more as the wing has gone inside.
To me it seems to be an attack that swamps the midfield with ball players to create room wide for a forward carrier. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.
If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke
Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently
This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.
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@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Instead of the 6 or 2 being wide to clean or carry if the cover has drifted they are finding themselves being the carrier in space more as the wing has gone inside.
Sometimes.. there's also times when the wingers have held their width. Same as SR level or previous AB years.
Even if there was a minor tweak to the frequency of a winger coming in (too early to say and the Tonga game is almost irrelevant), its a stretch to claim this has something to do with the breakdown issues. I think Parsons explained some of the possible breakdown issues quite well this week
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.
If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke
Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently
This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.
I've said it before but I really wanted Rieko to stay on the wing for a couple more years. Right now him playing 13 weakens the team as we don't have a world class left wing to replace him out there. Whereas we have loads of players vying for the 13 jersey.
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@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.
If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke
Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently
This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.
I've said it before but I really wanted Rieko to stay on the wing for a couple more years. Right now him playing 13 weakens the team as we don't have a world class left wing to replace him out there. Whereas we have loads of players vying for the 13 jersey.
Totally agree but I guess it all comes down to what he’s being told. If he’s being told that Bridge is a lock until the end of time then I guess that explains his decision to go for 13. Which is crazy because when in form he’s the best winger in the country by a he he country mile.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.
If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke
Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently
This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.
I actually thought Tana struggled a bit at centre but looked far more comfortable when he shifted to 2nd 5.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.
If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke
Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently
This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.
I've said it before but I really wanted Rieko to stay on the wing for a couple more years. Right now him playing 13 weakens the team as we don't have a world class left wing to replace him out there. Whereas we have loads of players vying for the 13 jersey.
Totally agree but I guess it all comes down to what he’s being told. If he’s being told that Bridge is a lock until the end of time then I guess that explains his decision to go for 13. Which is crazy because when in form he’s the best winger in the country by a he he country mile.
He is a very good winger, but this coaching set up seems to like hybrid 14/15s. It's been a while, but from what I recall Raone doesn't play that way.
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@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.
If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke
Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently
This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.
I've said it before but I really wanted Rieko to stay on the wing for a couple more years. Right now him playing 13 weakens the team as we don't have a world class left wing to replace him out there. Whereas we have loads of players vying for the 13 jersey.
Totally agree but I guess it all comes down to what he’s being told. If he’s being told that Bridge is a lock until the end of time then I guess that explains his decision to go for 13. Which is crazy because when in form he’s the best winger in the country by a he he country mile.
He is a very good winger, but this coaching set up seems to like hybrid 14/15s. It's been a while, but from what I recall Raone doesn't play that way.
Clarke doesn’t strike me as a hybrid 14/15. I reckon Raone could slot into 15 a lot better than 13.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I reckon Raone could slot into 15 a lot better than 13
His kicking game is miles away from fullback level
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@duluth said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I reckon Raone could slot into 15 a lot better than 13
His kicking game is miles away from fullback level
I’ve don’t think I’ve ever seen him kick. Is he really that bad? You can also say that his passing game is miles away from 13 level. Or at least the skills required there.
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Ok enough for a wings kicking skills
Discussion about his passing has an element of confirmation bias. I can't find this years numbers but if anything he would've improved. He seems to have a reputation of running himself and not setting up team mates. It's just not true. He's still a work in progress but he is close
Across all Super Rugby in 2020, in 889 minutes played he provided 5 scoring passes to teammates and 1 penultimate pass in a scoring sequence for a rate of 0.5 primary and secondary try assists per 80 minutes; in 928 minutes in 2021, he has contributed 5 and 2 respectively for a rate of 0.6 per 80. It’s true that this is only a slight uptick in performance, but it’s worth emphasising that he still blows his competitors for the black 13 jersey out of the water by this metric overall: his average of 0.6 primary and secondary assists per 80 across the last 2 seasons is much higher than Lienert-Brown’s (0.2) and Braydon Ennor’s (0.3). -
@Duluth I think Rieko has the tools to be right up there in the world as a centre. I just think he still had loads of tries left in him on the wing while still young, and the ABs have a glaring hole in that position at the moment. Clarke is our best bet there at the moment but he's off to play 7s and then needs to have a good season at SR level to get his confidence/form back to where it was.
Late bloomer
