All Blacks vs Fiji 2

[nzzp]

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

If we go Havili/ALB are we really establishing a partnership that will continue though?

Injury permitting.

Havili has been impressive. I'd have no issues with either a Havili/ALB or ALB/RIoane midfield. I just want a preferred option, with a preferred style please, and start playing together.

[gt12]

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@family-man

Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.

If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.

One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.

Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently

Interesting post, because I think there is an important point here. Our most successful teams have been relatively settled, so I wonder where a player like PUJ fits in? The next WC is not that far away, so this could indicate that he’s got a heap of work to do to get another look.

I’m surprised that they having had another look at him, and would at least like to know what they told him to work on (move franchises?). I also wonder how things might have turned out if TUJ didn’t get injured, as he looks like a traditional 12 in the Tupaea style.

Regarding the current mix, I’m tempted to say that they should try Havili with ALB and Roane and then make a decision and given that combo the rest of the season (with one off the bench [ALB or Havili] or moved to the wing [Roane]).

Havili starts or is left right out. We don’t need midfield/fullback cover.

If we go Havili/ALB are we really establishing a partnership that will continue though?

I dunno but I would assume that the combination should be looked at.

I dont understand your other comment - if we only have ALB and Roane in the team we need midfield cover somewhere else. Havili is pretty useful given that he can cover a few positions - he’s probably more useful that Jordie as he has at least played midfield and center consistently at Super level.

[gt12]

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

If we go Havili/ALB are we really establishing a partnership that will continue though?

Injury permitting.

Havili has been impressive. I'd have no issues with either a Havili/ALB or ALB/RIoane midfield. I just want a preferred option, with a preferred style please, and start playing together.

If we have Jordie at FB I’d like Havili there to give another playmaker, but if it is Dmac (or BB) at 15 then ALB and Roane might be a better fit.

[pakman]

Pakman team prediction:

Bower/Taylor/Ta'avao
BBBR/Whitelock
Savea/Aioane/Jacobson
Smith/Mo'unga
Havili/ALB
Rioane/Barrett (B)/Jordan

Bench:
de Groot/Coles/Laulala/Barrett (S)/Blackadder
Weber/Tupaea/Reece

Want Tupaea to get a run, although would make bench tricky.

[Chris]

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.

Or down a level, depending on your point of view....

Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.

The reason Fiji smashed us at the breakdown.
Muddled thinking is 100% right.

[mariner4life]

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.

Or down a level, depending on your point of view....

Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.

the French system last night showed the folly of relying on that plan. By the time the ball gets to your wide runners the opposition are already in their face. You are then left with hope. Hope your 108kg loose forward can bust the tackle of the 100kg midfielder in his face, or hope they can sneak an offload (and hope your FB is there to take it). You need momentum in close to create that separation out wide.

Everyone knows this, it's how you create that momentum that's the question

[booboo]

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@family-man

Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.

If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.

One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.

Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently

Ahem (#GOM). "Midfield". There is only one centre. He wears 13. 12 is 2nd five-eighth. We are NZers, not Poms.

(And while you're at it ditch those coloured boots...)

[booboo]

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.

Or down a level, depending on your point of view....

Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.

Listened to John Hart talking to Darcy last night while on my morning constitutional.

He basically said we don't have the players to bash the opposition ( unless it's Aus) suggesting all the talk about being physical is lip service. Hence we're developing a different pattern.

Probably something in that. If we don't have bashers we can't invent them.

[No Quarter]

@booboo said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.

Or down a level, depending on your point of view....

Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.

Listened to John Hart talking to Darcy last night while on my morning constitutional.

He basically said we don't have the players to bash the opposition ( unless it's Aus) suggesting all the talk about being physical is lip service. Hence we're developing a different pattern.

Probably something in that. If we don't have bashers we can't invent them.

He's wrong. We have players like Moody, Taylor, Coles, Ofa, Pat T, Whitelock, Brodie, Akira, Cane etc that can all bash players up front.

Also, the expectation isn't that we will dominate other sides up front - that's just not really possible in todays game. The expectation is that we'll at least get some parity. If we do that then our backs get oodles more space to work with. If we don't the backs get the ball with defenders in their face and make errors.

[Crucial]

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.

Or down a level, depending on your point of view....

Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.

the French system last night showed the folly of relying on that plan. By the time the ball gets to your wide runners the opposition are already in their face. You are then left with hope. Hope your 108kg loose forward can bust the tackle of the 100kg midfielder in his face, or hope they can sneak an offload (and hope your FB is there to take it). You need momentum in close to create that separation out wide.

Everyone knows this, it's how you create that momentum that's the question

Not quite everyone it seems

[canefan]

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.

Or down a level, depending on your point of view....

Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.

the French system last night showed the folly of relying on that plan. By the time the ball gets to your wide runners the opposition are already in their face. You are then left with hope. Hope your 108kg loose forward can bust the tackle of the 100kg midfielder in his face, or hope they can sneak an offload (and hope your FB is there to take it). You need momentum in close to create that separation out wide.

Everyone knows this, it's how you create that momentum that's the question

If not for a last second brainfart in game 1, France would be playing for a series sweep on the weekend

[Crucial]

@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@booboo said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.

Or down a level, depending on your point of view....

Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.

Listened to John Hart talking to Darcy last night while on my morning constitutional.

He basically said we don't have the players to bash the opposition ( unless it's Aus) suggesting all the talk about being physical is lip service. Hence we're developing a different pattern.

Probably something in that. If we don't have bashers we can't invent them.

He's wrong. We have players like Moody, Taylor, Coles, Ofa, Pat T, Whitelock, Brodie, Akira, Cane etc that can all bash players up front.

Also, the expectation isn't that we will dominate other sides up front - that's just not really possible in todays game. The expectation is that we'll at least get some parity. If we do that then our backs get oodles more space to work with. If we don't the backs get the ball with defenders in their face and make errors.

Pat T? At test level he has the “bash” of wet toilet paper.

My concern is more about defence and stopping forward momentum. Our problem for a number of years hasn’t been attacking systems it has been that when the opposition decide to play up the middle and don’t make mistakes they get easy momentum. We don’t have a Collins or Kaino to smash them back.
Our selections at 6 have not been geared to find this player either. Barret? Fifita? Frizzle?
Aoane’s USP is better in space (as is Savea). We need at least one tight loose forward with the others taking that role when we are being run at.
What we don’t need is loose forwards running themselves ragged covering for inside backs.

[Rancid Schnitzel]

@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@booboo said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Numbers on backs/positions are becoming blurred. I don't think it matters as much any more what 'position' a player is. How often do we see the backs lined up in the traditional 9,10, 12,13,15,11 or 14 way? Foster and co seem to be taking the mixing of roles up another level.

Or down a level, depending on your point of view....

Thing is that they talk about physicality and being dominant around the tackle then come up with a system that needs ball running loose forwards positioned out wide.
Muddled thinking from what I can see.

Listened to John Hart talking to Darcy last night while on my morning constitutional.

He basically said we don't have the players to bash the opposition ( unless it's Aus) suggesting all the talk about being physical is lip service. Hence we're developing a different pattern.

Probably something in that. If we don't have bashers we can't invent them.

He's wrong. We have players like Moody, Taylor, Coles, Ofa, Pat T, Whitelock, Brodie, Akira, Cane etc that can all bash players up front.

Also, the expectation isn't that we will dominate other sides up front - that's just not really possible in todays game. The expectation is that we'll at least get some parity. If we do that then our backs get oodles more space to work with. If we don't the backs get the ball with defenders in their face and make errors.

Yep. That final 2016 game against Ireland and the first Lions test showed the ABs can successfully dish it out up front. I don’t buy for a second that they don’t have the players to at least match the top teams in the physicality stakes.

[Duluth]

I see the loose forward out wide conversation has kicked off again. @muddyriver was quite succinct with his response on another thread

@muddyriver said in All Blacks 2021:

yea this is retarded. every team in NZ plays either 1-3-3-1 or slight variations of that.
so at any one time you have 2 guys playing that spot out wide

1-3-3-1 is how you group your forwards, during phase play, on attack. Or a variation of it like 2-2-3-1 or 2-4-2. But the concept is still the same of spreading the forwards on attack.

I think I'm correct in saying most NZ sides use the players 6 & 7 or 6 & 2 on the fringes? A few years ago it was more likely to include the 8
(as an aside, Akira always played this role but has shifted from mostly playing 8 to mostly playing 6 around the same time sides started using the 6 wider)

Some questions for those who are criticising Foster for using this pattern:
Can you think of a side that doesn't use a similar pattern on attack that they should be copying? Don't most sides use this now? If most teams use it then surely the breakdown problems from the weekend are caused by other issues?

I have a theory on why this has popped up on the forum in the last few weeks. The game against Tonga did not look the same as a SR Aotearoa match despite the same basic pattern being used.

So what was the difference? Well the score was 102-0, it's fair to say the defence struggled.Plenty of the tries the AB were easy. Simple draw and pass as the Tongan's struggled to number up. Sometime the last man was a winger, midfielder and on a few occasions a loose forward with loads of space

It's not some crazy new plan. It was shitter defence making things look different.

The Blues absolutely use this pattern but you didn't see that crazy amount of space for the forwards out wide... because they were facing better quality defences (yes even the AU sides...)
In most cases if a Blues 6 was involved in a try it wasn't scoring themselves, it was an offload to a finisher. Thats seems to be the more common result against good defences.

Last point - this positioning is not only about using a big guy on attack. It's also about securing the ball when the backline move breaks down. It gives the confidence to go wider when there is a guy who can shift bodies in a breakdown already there

There's plenty of other stuff to criticise Foster on. I don't see an issue here.

[Crucial]

@duluth you have missed the point I think.
I understand the pod system but what we are seeing is it being used in a different way in combo with the backs and the attack shape.
Instead of the 6 or 2 being wide to clean or carry if the cover has drifted they are finding themselves being the carrier in space more as the wing has gone inside.
To me it seems to be an attack that swamps the midfield with ball players to create room wide for a forward carrier.

[Rancid Schnitzel]

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@family-man

Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.

If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.

One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.

Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently

This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.

[Duluth]

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

Instead of the 6 or 2 being wide to clean or carry if the cover has drifted they are finding themselves being the carrier in space more as the wing has gone inside.

Sometimes.. there's also times when the wingers have held their width. Same as SR level or previous AB years.

Even if there was a minor tweak to the frequency of a winger coming in (too early to say and the Tonga game is almost irrelevant), its a stretch to claim this has something to do with the breakdown issues. I think Parsons explained some of the possible breakdown issues quite well this week

[No Quarter]

@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@family-man

Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.

If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.

One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.

Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently

This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.

I've said it before but I really wanted Rieko to stay on the wing for a couple more years. Right now him playing 13 weakens the team as we don't have a world class left wing to replace him out there. Whereas we have loads of players vying for the 13 jersey.

[Rancid Schnitzel]

@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@family-man

Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.

If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.

One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.

Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently

This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.

I've said it before but I really wanted Rieko to stay on the wing for a couple more years. Right now him playing 13 weakens the team as we don't have a world class left wing to replace him out there. Whereas we have loads of players vying for the 13 jersey.

Totally agree but I guess it all comes down to what he’s being told. If he’s being told that Bridge is a lock until the end of time then I guess that explains his decision to go for 13. Which is crazy because when in form he’s the best winger in the country by a he he country mile.

[ACT Crusader]

@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:

@family-man

Hope ALB is fit - he's our one really experienced player in midfield.

If h isn’t we get Roane again. Great for his development but if he isn’t the answer in 13 then it’s another lost opportunity.
I know he sees himself as a centre now but under this gameplan so is Bridge. Roane brings the wing/centre role a bit more wing and centre.

One key question for me is who are your centres likely to be in two years time at the RWC? For me, that's likely to be ALB, RIoane, and probably JG. Havili if he stays there. Savea (or Messam) if we want to make a joke Tupaea a real possibility. This far out though, aside from ALB, you're lookign at the attributes to see who could build to a higher level.

Rieko has potential because of his pace. Tana managed the shift, and became seriously good there. Rieko could get there, and is stepping up year on year. Can't see Bridge in tha tmix unless he starts playing there consistently

This is the thing. We look at Tana having successfully done it but has anyone else? Tana displayed a pretty insane skill set already as a winger but I don’t see that from Reiko. At least not yet. I hope I’m proven wrong but I just don’t see him as being a top class 13.

I actually thought Tana struggled a bit at centre but looked far more comfortable when he shifted to 2nd 5.