Pasifika - how do we fix this?
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This has nothing to do with my heritage. I'm a kiwi and the All Blacks are my team. But after the weekend dropping a ton on a team doesn't feel the same. I used to celebrate these victories. Now it's sad.
I've seen a lot of finger pointing from past players. Most fingers point at world rugby. But when these unions governing these teams are lining their own pockets with what ever funding they are given its not a simple fix.
NZRU play a massive part here. We are blessed with countless past Pacific Islander ABs. Some born here some not. Some of those not born here were straight poached. I'm sure there will be some blow back for that comment and I'm here for it. You'll tell me the player made a choice etc,etc...that's not what this thread is about.
Our union does do some good where they choose to but I really want to know, those who feel more can be done, what can we do? Do we petition for a law change? I don't think the jersey can be cheapened anymore. We run through 1-2 game ABs relentlessly these days. We select players that drop off faster than they used to. So if a player like Fekitoa or Fafita wants to head off shore and they are lost to us because of our own eligibility rules then why not allow them to jump ship to other nations. So long as it's thier home or heritage nation, obviously?
So a. How do we as a rugby community help unions who's governance is corrupt and b. What lengths do we go to ensure these nations are given ever opportunity to select the best possible teams they can.
Imagine COVID has passed please.
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@raznomore I know it's kind of missing the point - but a big part of the issue here was players not wanting to play or be released by their clubs, from what I can gather. Not sure we can point fingers at NZR there - even if Fekitoa was available, it's not exactly a given he'd have made the trip.
If anything, it shows the vast improvement in Tonga in that with a half club team in the weekend, they held the AB's to the same score as 21 years ago when they had their best players...
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NZR contributes more than we take from Pacific Islsnd teams. There are a number of born and bred NZers throughout the PI sides - msny more than we 'poach'.
This game, as I understand it, was a combination of European players not being made available and MIQ restrictions meaning the professional players were not available. Therefore its not a reflection of the true strength of the Tongan side and likely won't ever be repeated.
Best ways for PI teams to improve is for World Rugby to work with clubs to ensure all players are able to represent their country without penalties and to open up restrictions for players who are no longer representing their original tier 1 team (aside from the 7s loophole). -
@bones that's a good point and not missing anything. This is part of the issue. Players are not rewarded for their effort by their home union. They pay for their own flights and match pay is non existent. That fat c@nt of a Samoan PM told his players it was about pride not pay. While stuffing his face with luau and pig with money meant for his players.
This thread isn't necessarily about fixing the problem. Contrary to the title. All good if a solution is viable but it's more about looking at the obstacle involved. If a problem can't be fixed you have to cut your loses. Me and a couple mates, islanders, were talking about break away nations. Teams representing their people but outside of the official union. Like the Cavaliers. I don't want a lion's type amalgam. I'm just spit balling really....
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Seems to me it all comes down to money
One big problem for the national unions of Tonga, Fiji, etc is fielding their best players on a regular basis. A lot of that is down the struggle between the national unions and the clubs (mainly in the Nth hemisphere) - and poss. the competence of the Pasifika Unions, or lack of.
Also some of the richer unions make a packet out of ticket sales and TV fees when the Islands play them but the Pasifika players and unions don't get much of that (IIRC, the NZRFU & Oz do this to some extent). I read one Pasifika team (Fiji?) were unable to get a ground to practice on and slept in sleeping bags during the Autumn Internationals, which is appalling.
The IRB/World Rugby could get their act together and make some rules on sharing gate receipts and TV money and put some rules in place that clubs must release their players for Test matches. Can only think it's vested interests or a lack of confidence in the Pasifika Unions to use the money wisely.
I don't think allowing players to switch eligibility will make much difference - the money angle needs fixing first.
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@victor-meldrew said in Pasifika - how do we fix this?:
The IRB/World Rugby could get their act together ...
This won't happen if the problem lies in the same NH nations that have a majority on the WR Board (and are maybe supported by some other nations that don't want things fixed - e.g. Japan, USA, Canada - or are otherwise persuaded to support their views).
I don't think allowing players to switch eligibility will make much difference - the money angle needs fixing first.
Also, some players are explicitly against switching back to their PI home nation (Manu Tuilagi?), because they'd take a place of an up-and-comer youngster, who still needs to build a career.
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@Stargazer Manu is just politely saying no thanks.
Too many other former and current players are saying the opposite. They want law changes to eligibility.
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@bobily2 totally on the money. But when players are expected to pay their own way why would they make the trip?
I think perhaps my initial post is coming across that NZ are to blame and must fix the problem. That's not my intended point. More saying that we have benefitted and continue to do so. Excellent point regarding the two way door. It can not be ignored that NZ born, developed talent has played for other nations. I'm not here to slam the door shut on factual statements like this.
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my personal feeling is there is no silver bullet, several things need to change
Firstly i think more meaningful games so it becomes the normal the these countries to be playing and not such an event to assemble a squad. making them more meaningful might lure more of the players that could afford to pay their own way to come,
im sure there was a certain amount of "why come and risk injury for an exhibition game"
WR should build up RWC qualifying as more of a thing, less automatic spots, add some importance to games scattered throughout the three years between
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What exactly was the reasoning behind changing the eligibility rules in the first place ? From memory Junior Tonu’u was the last AB selected who had played for Samoa previously ? Actually no, I also recall Dylan Mika getting picked but then dropped cos he wasn’t eligible ?
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I'm sure from the perspective of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga, one of the advantages of the Fijian Drua and Moana Pasifika teams will be that the national unions will eventually have more control over player availability. At the moment the NH-based players either can't afford to, or are discouraged, from making themselves available. The quality of the players in those squads is for another discussion. I don't think there is any doubt there has been financial mismanagement from the PI unions which has meant they are still relying on the goodwill of other unions to subsidise the costs of tours. NZR and BOP have provided both to Tonga.
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@raznomore hmm I'm keen to look at ways of amending eligibility to help the PI teams too. But I don't think it's right to enable a pathway that could see plenty of PI eligible players who've played limited AB minutes, then leave for the NH and a big pay day on the back of their AB status, before turning out for a PI side which has no issue with selecting NH based players.
Every situation will vary of course but if a guy knows his career can play out like this, he could take the piss. There may be no intention of making a go of a lengthy SR and AB career, with the goal to be getting that one NZ cap to enable the big NH pay day and then a couple of World Cups with Samoa (for example). And it's probably going to be someone NZR and the domestic systems have spent good money developing.
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@shark yeah, i have been happy enough with fekitoa and the talk of Sopanga because it currently effects very few people, just a dusting of top talent to bring into these squads, dont want it to become the norm
It needs to be done alongside other things like clubs in the SH (not based in auckland) and as mentioned above more games so it becomes the norm to play for them fr these young guys
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IIRC correctly, NZ was happy to maintain the status quo in terms of eligibility, but the NH nations were the ones gunning for one nation for life. That was no doubt due to the rabid bullshit in their media about poaching and all that crap.
I’d be more than happy to return to the previous system.
Thing is NZ is always damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Cop shit for not playing the Islands and then cop shit when the ABs beat them by a cricket score.
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@victor-meldrew said in Pasifika - how do we fix this?:
Seems to me it all comes down to money
One big problem for the national unions of Tonga, Fiji, etc is fielding their best players on a regular basis. A lot of that is down the struggle between the national unions and the clubs (mainly in the Nth hemisphere) - and poss. the competence of the Pasifika Unions, or lack of.
Also some of the richer unions make a packet out of ticket sales and TV fees when the Islands play them but the Pasifika players and unions don't get much of that (IIRC, the NZRFU & Oz do this to some extent). I read one Pasifika team (Fiji?) were unable to get a ground to practice on and slept in sleeping bags during the Autumn Internationals, which is appalling.
The IRB/World Rugby could get their act together and make some rules on sharing gate receipts and TV money and put some rules in place that clubs must release their players for Test matches. Can only think it's vested interests or a lack of confidence in the Pasifika Unions to use the money wisely.
I don't think allowing players to switch eligibility will make much difference - the money angle needs fixing first.
This is not true. You are mis-remembering something else I would guess.
The host nation is responsible for and pays for the internal travel, hotels, training facilities etc.
There is no way in a million years that Fiji would be sleeping rough in France or England etc during the Autumn window.
What I suspect you are mixing this up with is the Zimbabwe team who left their hotel in protest in Tunisia during the the last RWC qualifying and twittered themselves sleeping in a bus station in protest at how bad their hotel was.
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I have found in my life that everything can be fixed by a dashboard.
My dashboard to fix PI rugby .....What is the problem, who could solve it, how.
Green if is not a problem or is solvable by themselves.
Red where they are deficient or if the solutions are things for which they are just flotsam in an ocean (or AB midget-passive tactics-counter attackers in a semifinal, for a rugby metaphor)