All Blacks 2021
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
Firstly, the forwards we produce for the All Blacks for a long time now are much leaner than their counterparts in the NH and SA. We all know we don’t produce the same amount of big men as these sides traditionally but we seem to be continuing down the leaner, mobile type of players even though rugby has changed - it’s slower, with more stoppages and it becomes harder to fatigue teams as we once used to be able to do.
great comment fella, some good things to think about. in order
firstly - we have always picked lighter, ball playing forwards rather than power forwards. It's how we have beaten SA for a long time- but at the moment, our props in particular are not ball players. There aren't many locks in world rugby that could (Brodie) sell a massive dummy inside and then gallop down the wing to score a try. Going back to '05, it was the passing in the tight forwards that made a big differnce to that side.
More recently, at 2019 RWC against SA, we got beaten up in the forwards, but had 5 minutes of magic (Reece!) and scored two critical tries. In 2015 semi against SA it was similar -w e got beaten up front, but did enough to stretch them and score enough points ... and our defence was super solid.
So, it's not a new tactic, but going the power route isn't necessarily the answer - more just getting better forwards!
Secondly, we have never solved the rush defence problem that first presented itself against The Lions.
Re-watch 2017 Lions 1 and see how we went; we went very well, with slashing diagonal runs from behind the ruck. There's space there, if you're good enough to exploit it. Arguably we should have won that series 3-0, but for a SBW brain fart and a number of AB injuries and tits for hands, culminating in allowing Poite to French us.
Thirdly, defence. Why have we not employed the same type of rush defence that we have so much trouble with?
good question - hopefully part of a wider plan rather than just 'this is what we do'.
Great post, hope it sparks some good debate
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@dagrubster good post.
I do wonder though if there is much innovation left in the pro-game. Analysis and sports science now means that differences and ideas are fairly quickly countered.
The one point of difference we sometimes hold is skills and vision to play at pace. As you point out the current game management negates many of those opportunities. Less players at a tackle on the ground (or bound properly) means that there is way less opportunity to switch from defence to attack in a blink and run against a defence with gaps to exploit.
I think we have conceded the point on being ahead of the game and are simply trying to play to our strengths of speed in action and thought.
My biggest concern is that we constantly run the risk of being out muscled but then rectify it the next week. In a RWC you don't get a 'next week'. That is the biggest fix we need. Being able to play that hard forward game as soon as we need it on field, not after a lengthy de-brief. -
Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.
I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?
It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me to wonder what type of forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?
You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides. -
You will be surprised about innovation. Innovation can come from every part of a rugby group and may only result in tiny gains but add it up and it can be the difference. The America’s cup is a good example of that.
I agree about being outmuscled and then rectifying it next time around.
2 games/opponents stand out for me. First was against Australia in 2019. Record defeat and then won 38-0 a week later. It felt we had to be totally embarrassed to produce a response.
Second, was the year before aga8nst the boks. They won in Wellington after we gifted them points and generally won all the stats.
The Abs talked about a big response in the return match in SA. However, we won something like 12 rucks in the first half of that match. It was pitiful. We did eventually win but that win had alarm bells ringing loudly about our ability to respond.
As I mentioned, 3 big games in a row seemed to be beyond that AB side. Great against Ireland in the qtr final - where they felt they had someth8ng to prove. Absolute gash a week later against England
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.
I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?
It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me too what forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?
You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides.Bulking is not Rocket science….it’s BRO science !!!!
Just get the forwards watching this, easy.
But my concern is the backs too, how many powerhouses are there who can blast through tackles like Nonu/J Savea ? Caleb Clarke needs to come back ASAP.
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@mn5 said in All Blacks 2021:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.
I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?
It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me too what forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?
You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides.Bulking is not Rocket science….it’s BRO science !!!!
Just get the forwards watching this, easy.
But my concern is the backs too, how many powerhouses are there who can blast through tackles like Nonu/J Savea ? Caleb Clarke needs to come back ASAP.
There is still a few. Fossie just refuses to pick them
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@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.
On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.
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@dagrubster front paged that one
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.
On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.
Hasn't been in form since the world cup.
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.
On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.
I think that’s the point though. TJ wasn’t playing that well when he left and he’s come back looking like an aids victim.
If he’s still the second best in the country he needs to show it -
@crucial exactly, I don't care who the player is, an All Black jersey to me needs to be earned whether you've played 1 test or 100. He's been away from NZ and to me he needs to show good form before he's selected again. I said the same thing with Beaudy and Brodie but unfortunately we just don't have enough world-class players in those areas to ease them back in.
@Kirwan for sure but I think he can get back to his best if he doesn't clutter his game. Will see what happens I guess.
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
Then I wondered whether it’s because of our set up? Hansen’s last gig as a head coach was 2003 before taking the reins in 2012. Foster’s last gig as a head coach was 2010.
Is being an asst coaches for so long in an All Blacks environment really the best preparation for leading the All Blacks?
It seems very insular in its thinking to me that we have coaches wrapped up in a largely All Black winning bubble, for a long period of time, and then expect them to keep ahead of the rest of the world.Great post, I actually had this thought recently, to succeed in nearly any discipline requires practice and experience doing the thing you need to improve.
I do wonder how you can be the best coach if you only coach a handful of games each year. What coaching skills do they do for the rest of the year?
I would be curious to know how many games Tony Brown has coached in the last 2 years compared to Foster and if this has any impact on your ability to be a good coach.
In saying that Hansen was part of the AB setup for a long time and had amazing success.
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.
Foster's comments about TJP on the news last night were interesting, and a fair criticism of him. That is, they wanted to see an improvement in the speed he gets to the breakdown and his passing. We're used to Smith's service and when TJP took the field it was like the hand-break was on.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2021:
I would be curious to know how many games Tony Brown has coached in the last 2 years compared to Foster and if this has any impact on your ability to be a good coach.
ABs will play 15 games this year, plus have time in camp outside that. They are effectively another team...
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To me ABs look better placed going into round 1 TRC this year than last year.
If you look at the likely AB starting XV for Bledisloe 1 it looks stronger than the same team for Bledisloe 1 last year with the exception of loosehead prop. Compare the outside back 3, midfield, loosies, locks.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2021:
I would be curious to know how many games Tony Brown has coached in the last 2 years compared to Foster and if this has any impact on your ability to be a good coach.
ABs will play 15 games this year, plus have time in camp outside that. They are effectively another team...
its not even a rep team anymore, A smith might actually play more games for the AB's this year than super games
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TJP is a bit feisty, isn't he? Hopefully, that transfers onto the field. Not sure he deserves his place based on his 2020 form but he had some work-ons from the coaches to do in Japan, didn't he? He is a really good player so hopefully he can get his halfback skills up and running.
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2021:
TJP is a bit feisty, isn't he?
He's a half back - being a feisty gobby shite is part of the job descrption!
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