Players to build the team around?
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@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@mariner4life said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B said in Players to build the team around?:
Mo'unga has quietly become the best first five in the world
that simply cannot be true.
Exactly.
How has he become the best in the world? Based on what body of work?
Well, you're saying Pollard.
Based on what? Winning the RWC?
The Richie-helmed team beat the Pollard-helmed team at the RWC and I'm going to say Pollard had a better pack of forwards in front of him.
But, basically, I think the Bok game plan was centred around Faf not Handre.
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@Chris-B said in Players to build the team around?:
@KiwiMurph Ah - I hadn't commented on the thing about kicking it dead for touch, but that's not something that bothers me unduly.
It's annoying when it happens, but it is risk and reward - for every yard extra you have to maul the chances that you don't score increases exponentially (Eddie Jones can probably tell you the value of the exponent). But, people don't much try to drive for a try from 25 metres out.
I saw the suggestions that with the state of the game Richie should have buttoned off and played safe and I thought they were bollocks. We needed to give ourselves the best possible chance to score from the maul and that required that Richie back himself to execute.
That he didn't is annoying and expensive - but, in the same situation I'd want him to back himself again.
In theory I agree with you.
However when you look at the specifics of the incident in question - it becomes a bad error.
ABs are down 16-3 basically right on halftime.
From where Richie Mounga kicks it from he actually has a huge angle to work with.
Any Mitre 10 Cup first five would back themselves to get it within 10 metres with that kick.
He actually didn't even get close to making the touch line despite kicking it with his right foot - it missed by a hell of a long way in the end.
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@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@mariner4life said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B said in Players to build the team around?:
Mo'unga has quietly become the best first five in the world
that simply cannot be true.
Exactly.
How has he become the best in the world? Based on what body of work?
76% winning percentage as an AB (15/21), but that is helped by the 6 wins we achieved with him coming off the bench (his one loss off the bench was against Ireland at Landsdown Road).
When he starts, he has a 64% winning percentage (9/14), with 3 losses and two draws.
Clearly makes a huge impact.
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@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@mariner4life said in Players to build the team around?:
@nzzp Joost is my guy
Smith is better than both the Australians IMO, and Murray as well. They all played different game styles though.
As far as "modern" halfbacks go, Joost best all around and then Fourie du Preez, IMO. FDP gets extra marks for playing an expanded role as his team's chief playmaker too.
Of the rest, it's Smith for me - Gregan had good chat, but once his running game disappeared we all realised how laboured his pass could be. Genia never quite maintained his excellent start, despite having all the tools. Murray is a bit like Marshall - a great rugby player first and foremost, but not a technically "pure" halfback (albeit a perfect fit for the team he plays in). None of the Welsh halfbacks (all of whom were very decent rugby players) really held the spot long enough (except for Howley), probably due to there being lots of competition. England, surprisingly, hasn't produced a lot of decent 9s - Ben Youngs (the English TJ) playing 100 tests says a lot.
DuPont looks like he might be able to surpass them all, but he is French so would not be surprised if he becomes highly erratic or falls out with a coach at some point, both of which might impact his final standing in the game.
Mike Phillips was a very good running halfback but possibly too Marshall like to be a great
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@KiwiMurph No question that it's a bad error - but, if you mishit the kick at all then it's going to go wrong - when you look at what he's aiming for (the 5 metre and goal). If he hooks it slightly he'll get away with it - if he slices he's done. he's only got a couple of degrees to play with. I still want him to go for it and will take 4/5.
Crucial started explaining this and got called arrogant, so I'm a bit gun-shy...
I remember several years ago, someone posted an overheard comment from Razor about a random first five kicking a penalty safely for touch and leaving 15+ metres to drive, where Razor said, "He's got to do better than that". And that was a moment of revelation for me.
Mitch Hunt (doubtless under Razor's tutelage) has similarly become a go for it exponent. He's not as good as Richie, but I'm still delighted that he backs himself.
And both the Crusaders and the Mako score a lot of tries from lineout drives.
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@MN5 said in Players to build the team around?:
@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@mariner4life said in Players to build the team around?:
@nzzp Joost is my guy
Smith is better than both the Australians IMO, and Murray as well. They all played different game styles though.
As far as "modern" halfbacks go, Joost best all around and then Fourie du Preez, IMO. FDP gets extra marks for playing an expanded role as his team's chief playmaker too.
Of the rest, it's Smith for me - Gregan had good chat, but once his running game disappeared we all realised how laboured his pass could be. Genia never quite maintained his excellent start, despite having all the tools. Murray is a bit like Marshall - a great rugby player first and foremost, but not a technically "pure" halfback (albeit a perfect fit for the team he plays in). None of the Welsh halfbacks (all of whom were very decent rugby players) really held the spot long enough (except for Howley), probably due to there being lots of competition. England, surprisingly, hasn't produced a lot of decent 9s - Ben Youngs (the English TJ) playing 100 tests says a lot.
DuPont looks like he might be able to surpass them all, but he is French so would not be surprised if he becomes highly erratic or falls out with a coach at some point, both of which might impact his final standing in the game.
Mike Phillips was a very good running halfback but possibly too Marshall like to be a great
Yep, squarely in the Marshall mold of being a great footy player and a hell of a competitor but probably lacking in technical and play making ability to be considered an all-time great (also the Welsh have produced many, many great halfbacks better than him).
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@Chris-B I just don't buy that for this example.
By kicking with his right foot there's a natural curl towards touch which should help him. He could have aimed between the 5-10 metres out and taken almost all risk out of it - instead he tries to push for the extra metre or 2 (you can't get any closer than 5 metres anyway) and the risk goes way up. A lineout 6 or 7 metres out is a hell of a lot better option than what happened.
This isn't Super Rugby or Mitre 10 Cup. This is a test match where you are down 13 points against a nation you've never lost to before.
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@KiwiMurph I'm saying that if you're Richie, you don't change your strategy based on the scoreboard.
You do change it based on the field position you're kicking from.
If he would usually aim for 5 metres and goal from there - then I want him to do it now.
If he's decided to push it, then he shouldn't have.
Otherwise, for me it's just the one in five that go wrong.
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@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@MN5 said in Players to build the team around?:
@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@mariner4life said in Players to build the team around?:
@nzzp Joost is my guy
Smith is better than both the Australians IMO, and Murray as well. They all played different game styles though.
As far as "modern" halfbacks go, Joost best all around and then Fourie du Preez, IMO. FDP gets extra marks for playing an expanded role as his team's chief playmaker too.
Of the rest, it's Smith for me - Gregan had good chat, but once his running game disappeared we all realised how laboured his pass could be. Genia never quite maintained his excellent start, despite having all the tools. Murray is a bit like Marshall - a great rugby player first and foremost, but not a technically "pure" halfback (albeit a perfect fit for the team he plays in). None of the Welsh halfbacks (all of whom were very decent rugby players) really held the spot long enough (except for Howley), probably due to there being lots of competition. England, surprisingly, hasn't produced a lot of decent 9s - Ben Youngs (the English TJ) playing 100 tests says a lot.
DuPont looks like he might be able to surpass them all, but he is French so would not be surprised if he becomes highly erratic or falls out with a coach at some point, both of which might impact his final standing in the game.
Mike Phillips was a very good running halfback but possibly too Marshall like to be a great
Yep, squarely in the Marshall mold of being a great footy player and a hell of a competitor but probably lacking in technical and play making ability to be considered an all-time great (also the Welsh have produced many, many great halfbacks better than him).
99 tests and five for the Lions. That's a bloody good resume though.
Big dude in the flesh too, I was shocked we were eye to eye when I saw him in Welly, I think standing next to Charteris on TV made me think he was about 5-9 tops......
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Is Richie getting rated in test rugby based on his Super form? He's been so average as a test 10 recently that I've wanted BB back at 10 despite the fact he's not really a 10.
Hopefully Mo'unga finds his feet at international level and turns into the guy @Chris-B is clearly madly in love with.
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I think we should be questioning whether this 'two playmakers' strategy is working.
In the tests in which Barrett and Mo'unga have started together over the past two years (Mo'unga 10, Barrett 15), we've got a 64% winning percentage (7/11), with 3 losses and one draw. If we include the Oz draw this year where Dmac replaced an injured Barrett, the winning percentage drops to 58%!
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@Nepia To an extent - but, as a Super rugby first five he's been by far the best for the past four years. And people will say, "But Crusaders..."and those who have paid attention will say "...have regularly struggled when anyone but Richie has been at the helm".
If we're going to have Handre Pollard as the World's best, we're going to have to ignore a great deal of Super rugby evidence.
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@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B The risk/reward associated with being one or two metres closer just doesn't add up in a test match which is all about taking your opportunities and minimising errors.
I'm not so sure that is true. I would say the difference between a 15 metre line out and a 20 metreline out is negligible because you don't maul it over from there. When you start to talk about 5 metres vs 10 metres, you are talking about a different kettle of fish. I'm happy for players to go for the metres but they have to be accurate enough that it tips in favour.
I also don't think the score board should matter. If going for the kick 5 metres out is our best chance of scoring, than go for it. Ultimately, Mo'unga just didn't execute. We wouldn't be talking about it if it was a one off but it is now a pattern.
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@gt12 said in Players to build the team around?:
I think we should be questioning whether this 'two playmakers' strategy is working.
In the tests in which Barrett and Mo'unga have started together over the past two years (Mo'unga 10, Barrett 15), we've got a 64% winning percentage (7/11), with 3 losses and one draw. If we include the Oz draw this year where Dmac replaced an injured Barrett, the winning percentage drops to 58%!
If Mo'unga is at 10, then isn't Beauden Barrett just the best fullback anyway? So if Mo'unga is your 10, then it is more about tactics and how you use Beaudy at fullback. If Beauden isn't at fullback, then Jordie is probably there who is a second play maker anyway.
I don't think Will Jordan has done enough to be starting fullback right now.
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@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B The risk/reward associated with being one or two metres closer just doesn't add up in a test match which is all about taking your opportunities and minimising errors.
I think I just take into account the exponential risk of having to drive a few extra metres and want Richie to say, "I'm Richie "Big Balls" Mo'unga. I'm backing myself to kick this ball where I usually do. I am taking responsibility (and the glare of the national spotlight if it goes wrong) rather than asking my forwards to cover my arse when the heat is on."
doesn't really matter whether it's Richie or Beauden or Jordie (or Mitch) I want them to go for it - take responsibility and back themselves.
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@Derpus said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B yeesh who cares about provincial form when assessing who the worlds best is? it's not the hardest form of rugby there is. Rubbish.
It's a hell of a lot better than saying Handre Pollard is the best because he won one game.
Why would you bother watching Super rugby, if you think it has no relevance to international rugby?
I am vastly more dismissive of your comment than you are of mine!
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@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B That's fair.
I just think with the angle Richie had that's a really poor error - he was 15 metres in field kicking with his right foot.
Which comes back to my original point - Sanchez didn't make such errors.
Yeah - I didn't think we had a vast disagreement, given you said that philosophically you agreed at the start.
I'd need to go back and see whether Sanchez tried ambitiously for touch and frankly, I'm not going to.
