Players to build the team around?
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[edit - split from the MOTM thread]
@mariner4life said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
The crushing disappointment and righteous public anger of 2007 forged the success of the next 8 years. And that anger built up over 20 years! A core group of players and coaches pretty much said "never again" and did everything in their power to ensure they never felt that level of disappointment. Even bumps on the way (2009) were immediately addressed to ensure we carried on.
What failure do these players know? They drew the Lions series, and everyone moved on. Great series ruined by the French was the general sentiment.
Last year we got flogged in a RWC semi final and we shrugged. Can't win 'em all we said. Beaten by the better side.
In a way, this is our fault for our complacency. We didn't flood talkback with barely comprehensible anger. We didn't write letters to the editor. No one spat on a horse.
Shoulder your portion of the blame guys, this is on us.
If you had to identify 5 current guys to be the equivalent of 5 of Richie, Kaino, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Thorn, Mealamu, to drive this forward over the next 2 cycles, who would you be putting your $ on?
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@voodoo said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
@mariner4life said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
The crushing disappointment and righteous public anger of 2007 forged the success of the next 8 years. And that anger built up over 20 years! A core group of players and coaches pretty much said "never again" and did everything in their power to ensure they never felt that level of disappointment. Even bumps on the way (2009) were immediately addressed to ensure we carried on.
What failure do these players know? They drew the Lions series, and everyone moved on. Great series ruined by the French was the general sentiment.
Last year we got flogged in a RWC semi final and we shrugged. Can't win 'em all we said. Beaten by the better side.
In a way, this is our fault for our complacency. We didn't flood talkback with barely comprehensible anger. We didn't write letters to the editor. No one spat on a horse.
Shoulder your portion of the blame guys, this is on us.
If you had to identify 5 current guys to be the equivalent of 5 of Richie, Kaino, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Thorn, Mealamu, to drive this forward over the next 2 cycles, who would you be putting your $ on?
zero clue, know nothing about their temperaments or personalities.
Of those listed, two are generational talents the likes of which we are unlikely to get to witness again. Two were talents with glaring issues that they went away and not only fixed, but actually improved. One was "too small" and had to work really hard to make the cut at all. One was not physically gifted but had the smarts to get better and better the higher the level he played. The other is a two-code champion renowned for his personal preparation.
Those kinds of personalities don't come around all the time. We had all of them at the same time.
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For me the obvious ones are Whitelock, Smith, BB, but they are all in the twilight of thier careers, they aint likely getting better.
The likes of ALB & Goodhue are both smart footballers who could potentially form a combination and be a big part of our squad for years to come, but they need to play more together.
Then you have Clarke, Sotutu, Jordan, Aumua who are clearly a cut above, but still along way from the finished articles, we need 2 or 3 more (a 9, a 10, lock or prop, mid-fielder) to add to these guys to build a team around.
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@sparky said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader Why is Foster picking them if they are out of form?
England have just won their fifth game on the bounce. Their side seem to be enduring okay despite 50,000+ UK deaths, two national lockdowns and Rugby training with more than five people being illegal for five months. Eddie Jones has monitored his players fitness tightly and dropped the guys who weren't meeting his strict expectations.
Don't blame the situation COVID (which is an international crisis), when it's the All Blacks coaches and management that are to blame for yesterday's appalling performance.
It’s not a competition about Covid numbers or deaths, the uncertainty about whether test rugby would even feature.
I’m not blaming Covid so you can cut that hyperbole out. As DM said, some players didn’t look too energised out there. They were underwhelming and tired. So that’s on the players and the coaches. But you can’t deny that it’s mid November and these guys really haven’t had a time to refresh for what would normally be our EOYT right now.
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Great points. We don't have the cattle that we had 10 years ago, that's clearly true; we also don't have the quality of leadership team either.
In terms of players to build the team around it's obviously BBBR up front, and in the backs it's still Barrett. The key leadership pieces in place around them are Cane and Smith (if he holds on) and Whitelock is there and vital, but he's on the downhill and probably won't make the next WC. So, that's only four key pieces we'll have and shows why we are in the shit; there is not a front rower we'd put there or a midfield general we can rely on.
Up front, we've got problems finding the support cast for BBBR (and Cane). Sadly many of the ppl who should be that cast are just not performing consistently, such as Taylor and Moody, who should both be at the point where they should be entering the potential best in the world conversation (and be key leaders of the team), but both are struggling to hold their spots. Ofa was making progress but he's stalled too, so the front row is where our biggest issues are for me - we still don't get enough from them. Coles should be filling the Hore role, but is still struggling with his discipline. We've had bad luck with some potential newer pieces getting injured too - I think Moli could be an absolute weapon off the bench, but we can't get him healthy and we pissed around trying to turn him into a loosehead.
In the loose forwards, Akira is potentially a very different type of 6 who could really change things for us, and they just have to give him a chance - his speed and bulk can be a real difference maker, and I think he has been similar to 2004 Kaino in going away and focusing more on his key roles. With luck, we don't wait for another 18 months for Akira to get his chance; rather we start putting him there now. Sotutu is the other player who they should be committed to developing here.
Ardie is the final piece which needs to be used well. If he is the future of the loose forwards, then I think it's time to make the big call on Cane. I don't think they should, but if that is the future, they should do it in the next year so that he is the senior 7 at the next WC.
So, if we invest right, we could have BBBR, Cane/Savea + two or three pieces in place by late 2022.
In the backs, we aren't helping Barrett by playing him at 15, and if we are moving him there, it should be because we've identified a generational talent at 10 - is Mo'unga that player? I don't think so.
With respect to supporting cast, in the backs ALB is the underrated piece IMO, and again I think they are fucking things up by not putting hm at 12, and getting him to focus on that - his quick feet and offload game can be vital.
And (deep breath), I think he should be paired with Roane (or at least, we should find a way to use Roane well).
I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.
If we can play it right, I think we can have Barrett, Smith, and ALB to build the backs around, with perhaps Jordie at FB as the last piece of the spine.
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@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.
You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?
He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.
Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?
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@mariner4life said in Players to build the team around?:
@voodoo said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
@mariner4life said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
The crushing disappointment and righteous public anger of 2007 forged the success of the next 8 years. And that anger built up over 20 years! A core group of players and coaches pretty much said "never again" and did everything in their power to ensure they never felt that level of disappointment. Even bumps on the way (2009) were immediately addressed to ensure we carried on.
What failure do these players know? They drew the Lions series, and everyone moved on. Great series ruined by the French was the general sentiment.
Last year we got flogged in a RWC semi final and we shrugged. Can't win 'em all we said. Beaten by the better side.
In a way, this is our fault for our complacency. We didn't flood talkback with barely comprehensible anger. We didn't write letters to the editor. No one spat on a horse.
Shoulder your portion of the blame guys, this is on us.
If you had to identify 5 current guys to be the equivalent of 5 of Richie, Kaino, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Thorn, Mealamu, to drive this forward over the next 2 cycles, who would you be putting your $ on?
zero clue, know nothing about their temperaments or personalities.
Of those listed, two are generational talents the likes of which we are unlikely to get to witness again. Two were talents with glaring issues that they went away and not only fixed, but actually improved. One was "too small" and had to work really hard to make the cut at all. One was not physically gifted but had the smarts to get better and better the higher the level he played. The other is a two-code champion renowned for his personal preparation.
Those kinds of personalities don't come around all the time. We had all of them at the same time.
i think when you dont have those Generational Talents you have to look at familiarity, pick existing combos, champion team beats a team of champions kind of thing
Nonu and Smith were never as good on their own as when they were together because between the hurricanes and AB how many games would they have played as a pair
I'm not saying bender was up there with richie and carter but he did have a special set of skills, treating every fullback like they can play wing because he and Jane could is just silly
if we dont have world beaters then we need to concentrate on a 23 and make as few changes as possible so they know what they and the guys around them are going to do without thinking about it, then all they have to think about is what the other team is doing
currently our guys look like theyre spending all their time trying to work out what they should be doing
so to answer your original question...dont know
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@Nepia i'll say im not a huge fan for Reiko because if anyone dares to try and tackle him he jump up like hes going to punch them and they arrogance to persist with the stupid one hand dot down and dive even when not being tackled...is annoying
in saying that i think purely on form i would have kept starting him and probably at 13, he did well in SRA there and then i think a lot of what he'd worked on has been pissed away by being in and out and playing a couple of different positions
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I don't see it as a player talent issue to be honest, our players are good enough, they just need the right coaching and team environment. If we played like Argentina did then we wouldn't be having these issues.
Lock is our biggest issue by far and just the team dynamic re loosies, midfield and back three. I have been very impressed with all the young players, Sotutu, Vaai, Akira, Clarke, Jordan and Puj show lots of promise. If the coaches can't get the best from the talent we have then something needs to change.
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@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:
@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.
You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?
He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.
Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?
Ref mic picks up revolting Rieko Ioane comments against Wales | Rugby Onslaught
God knows how this never got picked up at the time but we think this might land Rieko Ioane in some hot water even these years later...
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@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:
@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.
You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?
He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.
Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?
Actually that's the point I was trying to pick up on. I just wasn't clear.
I wrote that post earlier and moved some stuff around then posted it before a meeting. It actually applies to Rieko, Akira (maybe more than Rieko actually) and definitely Ardie (who has threatened leaving IIR), and it is the concern these guys are pro players who have a limited career span, so it's vital to make it clear that they are part of the future or they'll bolt for that money.
Right now, I'm not sure whether they've done a good job with Rieko, and they are doing a terrible job of making Akira wait too long.
Talented players who are forced to wait too long will leave (e.g., Luatua, Piutau), especially if it's not clear to them that they are part of the long term planning of the team.
What that might also mean is that we might not be able to keep guys long enough to build the super deep leadership groups that we've had in the past, because for various reasons we can't fit them in (e.g., Luatua behind Read) and therefore lose the next generation of leaders. Right now, we could have Luatua as the other senior loosie, but he's gone - we just couldn't hold him, so building leadership teams is getting harder and harder as keeping the really good guys long enough is getting more difficult.
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@Tim said in Players to build the team around?:
@MN5 OH MY GOD! He said "look at the score" five times! We can't have that sort of behaviour in a professional rugby team.
What an idiotic and hysterical website.
Completely. But I do remember seeing it and thinking he’s not doing his reputation any good with that carry on.
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@MN5 said in Players to build the team around?:
@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:
@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.
You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?
He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.
Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?
Ref mic picks up revolting Rieko Ioane comments against Wales | Rugby Onslaught
God knows how this never got picked up at the time but we think this might land Rieko Ioane in some hot water even these years later...
jeez, i thought he'd been caught throwing some kind of slur! thats the kind of banter i have no problem with
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@Kiwiwomble said in Players to build the team around?:
@MN5 said in Players to build the team around?:
@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:
@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.
You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?
He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.
Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?
Ref mic picks up revolting Rieko Ioane comments against Wales | Rugby Onslaught
God knows how this never got picked up at the time but we think this might land Rieko Ioane in some hot water even these years later...
jeez, i thought he'd been caught throwing some kind of slur! thats the kind of banter i have no problem with
Fair enough but notwithstanding the extremely clickbaity headline that’s part of the reason he is regarded like he is I suppose.
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@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:
@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:
I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.
You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?
He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.
Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?
I think Rieko comes across as a bit of a cock, but who cares - certainly less so than Dane Coles, Scott Barrett, Jordie Barrett, TJ.
However:
Rieko was great, then he wasn't. He played poorly and lost his spot - maybe that's injury-related, and team always has an impact - but whatever, it's still very much true that his standards dropped a lot from his previous heights. Blaming the wingers for Perth was weird, but he had played pretty crap all year. Pretending that never happened is revisionist.
And form centre for the comp? As opposed to who? Sio Tomkinson? The injured Ennor? Quinn Tupaea? Jack Goodhue is the best centre in the country, he was one of the few who stood up against the poms, and he's been pushed to 12 and has been passable only since then. ALB has been playing 12 and was mediocre all super season but has been far, far better than Rieko at centre for the ABs.
At this point he can't pass, and he runs people out of space. He's undoubtedly fast and elusive. Which all screams fucken wing. Maybe he'll make a good centre in the future, but he isn't one now, and now is when we're playing the game.
Anyway, that's a bit off topic.
Build the backs around clarke, ioane, beauden then jordan, goodhue at centre, ALB at 2nd, mounga, smith then fakatava. mckenzie on the bench.
Build the forwards around sotutu... um yeah, that's the problem isn't it. aumua, lomax, laulala, vaai, akira, frizzel, robinson maybe? they're all fucken maybes. whitelock is great, coles too, but both getting on. so too taylor and moody. pat and ardie aren't world beaters against the big boys that i've seen, and they and sam cane are all 1 WC left at best, and cane is highly likely to be invalided out.i know it's something of a joke, but jordie probably should move to 12. he's a very good player, but he's never going to demand a spot in our back 3 because he's simply not fast or athletic enough.
