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@reprobate said in US Politics:
...the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
Whilst I totally agree with your point here, where I feel uncomfortable is that with these idiots it is more than just attacking an easily identifiable abhorrent target. There is a large element of this being the hook to hang your hat on whilst hiding the truer motive of driving a hard left agenda. The socially acceptable idea of being anti-facist/racist rightly attracts a lot of decent people and these are the cloak for the real dangers.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up. 100%
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@Rancid-Schnitzel the US is not going to turn into nazi germany, nor is it going to turn into the soviet union.
a far left ideology is incredibly stupid, and incredibly dangerous if implemented - but these guys aren't in any danger whatsoever of being able to implement it - for all the stuff said on here about how crazy lefties are ruining the world - that particular democracy just voted in donald trump.
previously (before these antifa fuckwits started getting violent) i would have said it was like the difference between a brainless hippie and a skinhead - put either in as president and you're fucked, but one of them is dangerous as an individual joe bloggs, and the other isn't. neither is going to be president, so the focus should be on stopping the real danger.
despite recent developments, i'd say the numbers are still vastly in that direction.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Catogrande yeah i just don't know - it's not like i have any in-depth knowledge of their organisation. what i see is misguided fluffybunnies being fluffybunnies, and it is obvious that something like that is going to attract a whole range of total fucking idiots whose agenda extends way beyond being opposed to fascism. there are similarities with our green party at present. the green thing is a good idea, but it attracts a heap of anti-business idiots - that they are totally wrong on many things makes it impossible to vote for them, but it doesn't make them wrong on the environment cause.
in this specific case, what their stupidity and violence was directed against was something terrible. everything they did was stupid and wrong, and people should go to prison for it - but their opposition was correct.the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up.
Stalin was violently opposed to Nazism and Hitler, pity about his other views and actions that made him as bad if not worse than Hitler.
That's ANTIFA in a nutshell.
Except they signed a non-aggression treaty in 1939 and carved up Poland between them. Stalin become opposed to Hitler and Nazism when Hitler stabbed him in the back in 1942.
It's actually a good example of how the extreme left and the extreme right are almost indistinguishable in their outcomes.
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Catogrande yeah i just don't know - it's not like i have any in-depth knowledge of their organisation. what i see is misguided fluffybunnies being fluffybunnies, and it is obvious that something like that is going to attract a whole range of total fucking idiots whose agenda extends way beyond being opposed to fascism. there are similarities with our green party at present. the green thing is a good idea, but it attracts a heap of anti-business idiots - that they are totally wrong on many things makes it impossible to vote for them, but it doesn't make them wrong on the environment cause.
in this specific case, what their stupidity and violence was directed against was something terrible. everything they did was stupid and wrong, and people should go to prison for it - but their opposition was correct.the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up.
Stalin was violently opposed to Nazism and Hitler, pity about his other views and actions that made him as bad if not worse than Hitler.
That's ANTIFA in a nutshell.
Except they signed a non-aggression treaty in 1939 and carved up Poland between them. Stalin become opposed to Hitler and Nazism when Hitler stabbed him in the back in 1942.
It's actually a good example of how the extreme left and the extreme right are almost indistinguishable in their outcomes.
Not true. Stalin hated fascism and Hitler but was scared shitless of him. The non-aggression pact bought him time. Its completely false to claim theyd always been bussom buddies up until the invasion in 1941 (pedant alert: you even got the year wrong).
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel the US is not going to turn into nazi germany, nor is it going to turn into the soviet union.
a far left ideology is incredibly stupid, and incredibly dangerous if implemented - but these guys aren't in any danger whatsoever of being able to implement it - for all the stuff said on here about how crazy lefties are ruining the world - that particular democracy just voted in donald trump.
previously (before these antifa fuckwits started getting violent) i would have said it was like the difference between a brainless hippie and a skinhead - put either in as president and you're fucked, but one of them is dangerous as an individual joe bloggs, and the other isn't. neither is going to be president, so the focus should be on stopping the real danger.
despite recent developments, i'd say the numbers are still vastly in that direction.
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a smartarse but could you please structure what you're trying to say a little clearer. You're a bit all over the place there.
My point was that even though ANTIFA may hate white supremacists, that certainly isn't the only thing they hate or want to destroy. In fact their definition of white supremacist or Nazi is as broad as Maos definition of "capitalist rollers", I.e anyone who isn't lock stock and barrel in line with their precise views. It should also be noted that they were smashing up college campuses long before some actual Nazis came into the picture.
They were rightfully and deservedly condemned.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Pedant alert duly noted, but if you see my contributions to the GoT thread you will note I am perennially behind the times.
There are several schools of thought about the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact. Buying time was one that was championed by the Soviets later on and this makes you think of Mandy Rice-Davies "Well they would say that, wouldn't they"?
I think the only thing you can say with any certainty about Stalin is that what he said and what he really thought was not always correlated
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel Pedant alert duly noted, but if you see my contributions to the GoT thread you will note I am perennially behind the times.
There are several schools of thought about the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact. Buying time was one that was championed by the Soviets later on and this makes you think of Mandy Rice-Davies "Well they would say that, wouldn't they"?
I think the only thing you can say with any certainty about Stalin is that what he said and what he really thought was not always correlated
Sure, mystery, riddle, enigma etc. But that doesn't change the fact that they were mortal enemies who entered into an agreement out of convenience, not because they were mates.
I'll use another analogy if you don't like the Stalin one. A bunch of Islamic extremists waving ISIS flags and screaming death to Jews, women in bikinis etc. protest in a park. A group of neo-Nazis have a counter-protest and all hell ensues. Are the Neo Nazis beyond reproach because they have the noble and desirable goal of eradicating Islamic fundamentalists? Of course not, they're just another bunch of ignorant, violent thugs who are equally as bad as the dickheads they're fighting against.
This notion that ANTIFA are just a bunch of misguided hippies is just completely false (not your argument Cato, just making a point).
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So a petition had been launched to have them labelled as a domestic terrorist organisation. It has gotten over the 100,000 signatures required to require discussion at the whitehouse. Trump however hasn't been living up to this commitment (not totally surprising seeing the huge sometimes mindless opposition to him) though he might make an exception here.
The question is will labelling them as a terrorist group do more harm than good? Will it scare members out or will it embolden members into increased violence in order to live up to a terrorist narrative.
It will be fun asking these masked morons their thoughts at the next aussie protest. By definition they are most definitely a terrorist organisation regardless of their innate level of retard.
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
...the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
Whilst I totally agree with your point here, where I feel uncomfortable is that with these idiots it is more than just attacking an easily identifiable abhorrent target. There is a large element of this being the hook to hang your hat on whilst hiding the truer motive of driving a hard left agenda. The socially acceptable idea of being anti-facist/racist rightly attracts a lot of decent people and these are the cloak for the real dangers.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up. 100%
Agree completely, Antifa violently oppose most things capitalism - you only have to look at the riots and destruction of businesses during the G20 Summit in Hamburg to see that. The ideology they are pushing has a disastrous track record when you look at the observable history of the 20th century - so it is dangerous.
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@No-Quarter That's a nice bit of perspective there.
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PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP’S AGENDA ITEMS AND THREAT MATRIX, RANKED
Here’s what Trump’s daily brief may or may not consist of as he moves into his seventh month in the Oval Office.BY BRUCE FEIRSTEIN
SEPTEMBER 2017
“When he took office, Trump signaled to his national security team that he favors concise points boiled down to a single page . . . [with] as many visual elements as possible.”— THE WASHINGTON POST
TOP SECRET: CONFIDENTIAL
To: President Donald J. Trump
From: Dan Coats, Director of National Intelligence
Subject: President’s Daily Brief Good morning, President Trump! Hope you slept well and tweeted effectively overnight. Per your request, today’s Big Picture:NORTH KOREA: Lil’ Kim still shooting off ICBM’s & testing nukes. Bad guy. Very bad guy. Invite to W.H.? Y/N?
ISIS: Still trying to annihilate “Evil losers” with drone-strike/ridicule campaign. Pentagon wants $$$ for more effective bombs/barbs. Y/N?
SYRIA: Assad still won’t get out. Donnie Jr. suggests we deploy Trump building managers w/ “final” eviction notice. Swears 100% success rate. Y/N?
CHINA: Still militarizing islands in S. China Sea; refuses to help w/N. Korea. Eric Trump proposes “Winner take all” golf tourney at Trump Bali property. Y/N?
RUSSIA: C.I.A. reports Putin may be launching a full-scale Twitter war w/ U.S.A. Q: POTUS reply, or send Ivanka and Jared on charm offensive?
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@infidel said in US Politics:
Interesting read here.
Thanks for posting, you're right, very interesting. I don't know much about The Hive as a source so I cranked up my sceptic gauge a notch or two but I'm not sure that has coloured my view much.
First off it is a long read with what I felt at times was padding but also providing background to some of the people to give some context. Whilst I understand the reluctance of people still working at the DoE to come out and say what they feel, in these times, particularly in the US I do feel a little suspicious.
Nonetheless the story backs up what a lot of people are thinking about the leadership from Trump's administration and also a lot about the people that he surrounds himself with. More than anything though it shows the very real issues and problems that will be encountered on trying to drain the swamp.
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@infidel said in US Politics:
Interesting read here.
That's unsurprising given Trump's people had very little public administration experience.
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Pardon time. Sheriff Joe.
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Critics: 'Tough' sheriff botched sex-crime cases
Both cases were among more than 400 sex-crimes reported to Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's office during a three-year period ending in 2007 -- including dozens of alleged child molestations -- that were inadequately investigated and in some instances were not worked at all, according to current and former police officers familiar with the cases.
In El Mirage alone, where Arpaio's office was providing contract police services, officials discovered at least 32 reported child molestations -- with victims as young as 2 years old -- where the sheriff's office failed to follow through, even though suspects were known in all but six cases.
Many of the victims, said a retired El Mirage police official who reviewed the files, were children of illegal immigrants.
US Politics