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The Atlantic about Bannon
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/bannon-unleashed/537381/
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
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I remember some years ago visiting my parents in Brisbane and the number 1 news item was a convicted paedophile being released. Furious residents of a small town found out he'd ended up there and they had to be restrained from beating the shit out of him. The premier at the time came out and very forcefully said that the paedophile was now a free man who had served his time and was to be left alone. He wasn't supporting what the guy had done, he wasn't supporting paedophilia, he was telling people what they were doing was illegal and he was upholding the law.
Similar situation applies here. As abhorrent as the gathering in Charlottesville was, they were legally entitled to be there. As much as I personally would like to punch each and every one of these weirdos in the nuts with pointy steelcapped boots, that would be illegal regardless of me having every moral and righteous justification to do so.
When you combine the fact that those committing these acts of violence were in no way morally pure themselves and adhere to ideologies just as dangerous as the white supremacists (some were carrying Soviet flags) then it is correct and sensible to apportion blame to both sides. That isn't an endorsement of one or either side and it's quite appalling that it's being construed as such.
The hysterical reaction to this says everything about the media today.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
Scum who have been violent at multiple protests over the last few months. Just because they faced off against another scummy group of people doesn't make them good.
But stupid people think in binary terms. That side bad.. therefore that side good. No, they can all be arseholesAnother thing worth mentioning is the orders the police departments are getting.
These protests should be two groups of retarded larpers yelling each other from opposite sides of the street, with the police in the middle keeping the peace while rolling their eyes.
Stand down orders are the government inflicting force via proxy. It is dangerous and it will result in escalation at future events. The media should be looking into that more
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It will be interesting to see if Bannon leaving results in policy changes. He was closely linked to the anti-trade policies and a more isolationist foreign policy
Ivanka and Kushner would appear to have more influence now. Does Trump now play footsie with the Democrats on infrastructure (which is similar to Obamas stimulus package)?
Of course it would be difficult for the Dems to work with him after telling everyone he is literally Hitler -
@Duluth said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
Scum who have been violent at multiple protests over the last few months. Just because they faced off against another scummy group of people doesn't make them good.
But stupid people think in binary terms. That side bad.. therefore that side good. No, they can all be arseholesAnother thing worth mentioning is the orders the police departments are getting.
These protests should be two groups of retarded larpers yelling each other from opposite sides of the street, with the police in the middle keeping the peace while rolling their eyes.
Stand down orders are the government inflicting force via proxy. It is dangerous and it will result in escalation at future events. The media should be looking into that more
This has happened a few times now, notably at Berkeley. A Milo event was also crashed by a small number of protesters rushing the stage and the police did nothing. It seems that those making the decisions are petrified of the optics and don't want to be responsible for removing or arresting people who they sympathise with. That is not only a dereliction of their duty as elected officials but also, as you mention, incredibly dangerous.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
This has happened a few times now, notably at Berkeley
I think I'm remembering the right protest.. but that was one of the worst examples
Pro Trump protesters were let into a secure area. In return for entering they had to remove protective gear or anything that could be considered a weapon. Good.
Antifa stood just outside the secure area by the only allowed exit and were not disarmed. Hmmm
After the rally ended the Trump protestors were released in 1s and 2s to run the gauntlet
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
it is possible to be scum, and to be doing awful things, in the support of a positive idea - i.e. opposition to fascism. as i've said, lock the fluffybunnies up.
my point though is that the white supremacists don't have any positive idea. they are scum doing awful things, in the support of an awful idea. that is the false equivalence. -
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
the issue with trump's statements is kinda obvious. he's drawing an awful false equivalency.
you have white supremacists, who are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and you have the counter-protesters, who are doing the wrong things for the right reasons.
they are not the same.now i'm all for condemning and locking up these people who do the wrong things for the right reasons, but you can't just put them in the same basket as nazis, and you can't say 'there are two sides' to a white supremacy debate.
I completely disagree that ANTIFA do anything for the right reason. They are scum, just like the neo Nazis.
it is possible to be scum, and to be doing awful things, in the support of a positive idea - i.e. opposition to fascism. as i've said, lock the fluffybunnies up.
my point though is that the white supremacists don't have any positive idea. they are scum doing awful things, in the support of an awful idea. that is the false equivalence.I see where you're coming from but I would counter that by saying some lot like ANTIFA are scum, doing awful things in the supposed support of a positive idea, but in reality they are pushing an equally horrible agenda, just not being so unashamedly open about it.
As has been said on here several times the white supremacists etc have no real relevance or traction. The thing that really gets me about the neo-nazis and their ilk is that they give credence to shitheads like ANTIFA.
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@Catogrande yeah i just don't know - it's not like i have any in-depth knowledge of their organisation. what i see is misguided fluffybunnies being fluffybunnies, and it is obvious that something like that is going to attract a whole range of total fucking idiots whose agenda extends way beyond being opposed to fascism. there are similarities with our green party at present. the green thing is a good idea, but it attracts a heap of anti-business idiots - that they are totally wrong on many things makes it impossible to vote for them, but it doesn't make them wrong on the environment cause.
in this specific case, what their stupidity and violence was directed against was something terrible. everything they did was stupid and wrong, and people should go to prison for it - but their opposition was correct.the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Catogrande yeah i just don't know - it's not like i have any in-depth knowledge of their organisation. what i see is misguided fluffybunnies being fluffybunnies, and it is obvious that something like that is going to attract a whole range of total fucking idiots whose agenda extends way beyond being opposed to fascism. there are similarities with our green party at present. the green thing is a good idea, but it attracts a heap of anti-business idiots - that they are totally wrong on many things makes it impossible to vote for them, but it doesn't make them wrong on the environment cause.
in this specific case, what their stupidity and violence was directed against was something terrible. everything they did was stupid and wrong, and people should go to prison for it - but their opposition was correct.the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up.
Stalin was violently opposed to Nazism and Hitler, pity about his other views and actions that made him as bad if not worse than Hitler.
That's ANTIFA in a nutshell.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
...the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
Whilst I totally agree with your point here, where I feel uncomfortable is that with these idiots it is more than just attacking an easily identifiable abhorrent target. There is a large element of this being the hook to hang your hat on whilst hiding the truer motive of driving a hard left agenda. The socially acceptable idea of being anti-facist/racist rightly attracts a lot of decent people and these are the cloak for the real dangers.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up. 100%
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@Rancid-Schnitzel the US is not going to turn into nazi germany, nor is it going to turn into the soviet union.
a far left ideology is incredibly stupid, and incredibly dangerous if implemented - but these guys aren't in any danger whatsoever of being able to implement it - for all the stuff said on here about how crazy lefties are ruining the world - that particular democracy just voted in donald trump.
previously (before these antifa fuckwits started getting violent) i would have said it was like the difference between a brainless hippie and a skinhead - put either in as president and you're fucked, but one of them is dangerous as an individual joe bloggs, and the other isn't. neither is going to be president, so the focus should be on stopping the real danger.
despite recent developments, i'd say the numbers are still vastly in that direction.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Catogrande yeah i just don't know - it's not like i have any in-depth knowledge of their organisation. what i see is misguided fluffybunnies being fluffybunnies, and it is obvious that something like that is going to attract a whole range of total fucking idiots whose agenda extends way beyond being opposed to fascism. there are similarities with our green party at present. the green thing is a good idea, but it attracts a heap of anti-business idiots - that they are totally wrong on many things makes it impossible to vote for them, but it doesn't make them wrong on the environment cause.
in this specific case, what their stupidity and violence was directed against was something terrible. everything they did was stupid and wrong, and people should go to prison for it - but their opposition was correct.the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up.
Stalin was violently opposed to Nazism and Hitler, pity about his other views and actions that made him as bad if not worse than Hitler.
That's ANTIFA in a nutshell.
Except they signed a non-aggression treaty in 1939 and carved up Poland between them. Stalin become opposed to Hitler and Nazism when Hitler stabbed him in the back in 1942.
It's actually a good example of how the extreme left and the extreme right are almost indistinguishable in their outcomes.
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Catogrande yeah i just don't know - it's not like i have any in-depth knowledge of their organisation. what i see is misguided fluffybunnies being fluffybunnies, and it is obvious that something like that is going to attract a whole range of total fucking idiots whose agenda extends way beyond being opposed to fascism. there are similarities with our green party at present. the green thing is a good idea, but it attracts a heap of anti-business idiots - that they are totally wrong on many things makes it impossible to vote for them, but it doesn't make them wrong on the environment cause.
in this specific case, what their stupidity and violence was directed against was something terrible. everything they did was stupid and wrong, and people should go to prison for it - but their opposition was correct.the rhetoric of hate from the nazi types is against eg black people, jews - innocents, to simplify it. whereas the hatred from the antifa nutters is towards a nasty idea (and consequently those who follow it). one concept is worse than the other - but it certainly doesn't follow that the actions of one group is worse than the actions of the other.
i'm with you on the giving credence to the shitheads. i just don't understand why it isn't straightforward to condemn the nazis, say their ideas have no place here - and, then, afterwards - condemn the violence and tell the misguided idiots that they are wrong, are making things worse, and are going to be locked up.
Stalin was violently opposed to Nazism and Hitler, pity about his other views and actions that made him as bad if not worse than Hitler.
That's ANTIFA in a nutshell.
Except they signed a non-aggression treaty in 1939 and carved up Poland between them. Stalin become opposed to Hitler and Nazism when Hitler stabbed him in the back in 1942.
It's actually a good example of how the extreme left and the extreme right are almost indistinguishable in their outcomes.
Not true. Stalin hated fascism and Hitler but was scared shitless of him. The non-aggression pact bought him time. Its completely false to claim theyd always been bussom buddies up until the invasion in 1941 (pedant alert: you even got the year wrong).
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel the US is not going to turn into nazi germany, nor is it going to turn into the soviet union.
a far left ideology is incredibly stupid, and incredibly dangerous if implemented - but these guys aren't in any danger whatsoever of being able to implement it - for all the stuff said on here about how crazy lefties are ruining the world - that particular democracy just voted in donald trump.
previously (before these antifa fuckwits started getting violent) i would have said it was like the difference between a brainless hippie and a skinhead - put either in as president and you're fucked, but one of them is dangerous as an individual joe bloggs, and the other isn't. neither is going to be president, so the focus should be on stopping the real danger.
despite recent developments, i'd say the numbers are still vastly in that direction.
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a smartarse but could you please structure what you're trying to say a little clearer. You're a bit all over the place there.
My point was that even though ANTIFA may hate white supremacists, that certainly isn't the only thing they hate or want to destroy. In fact their definition of white supremacist or Nazi is as broad as Maos definition of "capitalist rollers", I.e anyone who isn't lock stock and barrel in line with their precise views. It should also be noted that they were smashing up college campuses long before some actual Nazis came into the picture.
They were rightfully and deservedly condemned.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Pedant alert duly noted, but if you see my contributions to the GoT thread you will note I am perennially behind the times.
There are several schools of thought about the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact. Buying time was one that was championed by the Soviets later on and this makes you think of Mandy Rice-Davies "Well they would say that, wouldn't they"?
I think the only thing you can say with any certainty about Stalin is that what he said and what he really thought was not always correlated
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel Pedant alert duly noted, but if you see my contributions to the GoT thread you will note I am perennially behind the times.
There are several schools of thought about the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact. Buying time was one that was championed by the Soviets later on and this makes you think of Mandy Rice-Davies "Well they would say that, wouldn't they"?
I think the only thing you can say with any certainty about Stalin is that what he said and what he really thought was not always correlated
Sure, mystery, riddle, enigma etc. But that doesn't change the fact that they were mortal enemies who entered into an agreement out of convenience, not because they were mates.
I'll use another analogy if you don't like the Stalin one. A bunch of Islamic extremists waving ISIS flags and screaming death to Jews, women in bikinis etc. protest in a park. A group of neo-Nazis have a counter-protest and all hell ensues. Are the Neo Nazis beyond reproach because they have the noble and desirable goal of eradicating Islamic fundamentalists? Of course not, they're just another bunch of ignorant, violent thugs who are equally as bad as the dickheads they're fighting against.
This notion that ANTIFA are just a bunch of misguided hippies is just completely false (not your argument Cato, just making a point).
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So a petition had been launched to have them labelled as a domestic terrorist organisation. It has gotten over the 100,000 signatures required to require discussion at the whitehouse. Trump however hasn't been living up to this commitment (not totally surprising seeing the huge sometimes mindless opposition to him) though he might make an exception here.
The question is will labelling them as a terrorist group do more harm than good? Will it scare members out or will it embolden members into increased violence in order to live up to a terrorist narrative.
It will be fun asking these masked morons their thoughts at the next aussie protest. By definition they are most definitely a terrorist organisation regardless of their innate level of retard.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/formally-recognize-antifa-terrorist-organization-0
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US Politics