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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="588182" data-time="1465956922"><p>Oh really..... yet you didnt chose to tell anyone else this when they started talking about homosexuality in a gun control thread... how telling.</p></blockquote>Gun massacre in a gay nightclub in the USA fits the thread. But I think you know that
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<p>This makes me think of the film American Beauty and the guy who kills Kevin Spacey. He's a closet homosexual who has a belief system that tells him his natural desires are wrong or evil. His response is to kill the object of his desires. That was his way of atoning.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="588194" data-time="1465959819">
<div>
<p>Gun massacre in a gay nightclub in the USA fits the thread. But I think you know that</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>A Islam inspired gun massacre in a gay nightclub in the USA fits the the thread as well. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="588190" data-time="1465959063">
<div>
<p>Wow. Mate of mine put this on FB - said he'd verified a few of the stories using the date and state (their FB page has links to the stories).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>That is some crazy shit.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif" alt="attachicon.gif"><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=2036'>pagv.jpg</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Shit like that is why gun control is a necessity. Fucking assholes who escalate from hello to homicidal in 0.5 seconds for the most insane reasons.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>No impulse control, no filter, no qualms about putting a bullet in another person, but they can buy a gun in seven fucking minutes.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mokey" data-cid="588214" data-time="1465962293">
<div>
<p>Shit like that is why gun control is a necessity. Fucking assholes who escalate from hello to homicidal in 0.5 seconds for the most insane reasons.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Some asshole said the team I posted on the internet was shit, so I tracked him down and shot him! :)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="588217" data-time="1465962847">
<div>
<p>Some asshole said the team I posted on the internet was shit, so I tracked him down and shot him! :)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>at least he was right before he died</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="phoenetia" data-cid="588193" data-time="1465959701">
<p>I had to check out that squirrel story. Its as crazy as it sounds.<br><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.denverpost.com/2016/06/10/squirrel-guy-ordered-to-stand-trial-on-attempted-murder-charge-after-shooting-neighbor-in-butt/'>http://www.denverpost.com/2016/06/10/squirrel-guy-ordered-to-stand-trial-on-attempted-murder-charge-after-shooting-neighbor-in-butt/</a></p>
</blockquote>
<br><p>The links for all of them are provided <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.facebook.com/ParentsAgainstGunViolence/photos/a.416647195073938.95672.413407645397893/1059551464116838/?type=3'>here</a>.</p> -
<p><strong><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/noor-zahi-salman-omar-mateen.html'>After F.B.I.’s Inquiry Into Omar Mateen, a Focus on What Else Could Be Done</a></strong></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="588234" data-time="1465967190">
<div>
<p><strong><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/noor-zahi-salman-omar-mateen.html'>After F.B.I.’s Inquiry Into Omar Mateen, a Focus on What Else Could Be Done</a></strong></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Nice article Tim. In the context of gun control the fact this guy was inspired by ISIS is a distraction from the real issue. Until the government is willing to pass laws to aid in gun control anyone, be they wannabe Islamic jihadist, mentally impaired, filled with hate for something or someone/anyone can buy a gun and do shit like this. It won't solve the issue but the problem has multiple risk points and the more of these that can be reduced the better</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="588234" data-time="1465967190">
<div>
<p><strong><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/noor-zahi-salman-omar-mateen.html'>After F.B.I.’s Inquiry Into Omar Mateen, a Focus on What Else Could Be Done</a></strong></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Good read. Liked these two bits when put together:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;font-size:17px;">Even if Mr. Mateen had remained on the watch list, it would not have stopped him from buying a gun. Congress blocked an attempt last year to give the F.B.I. the power to block gun sales to people on terrorism watch lists.</span></strong></p>
<p>...</p>
<p><strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;font-size:17px;">The National Rifle Association moved quickly to quash discussion of new gun policies. In </span><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/06/13/gun-laws-deter-terrorists-opposing-view/85844946/'>a piece for USA Today</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;font-size:17px;">, Chris W. Cox, the group’s executive director, blamed the federal authorities for not doing more to stop Mr. Mateen. “His former co-workers reported violent and racist comments,†Mr. Cox wrote. “Unfortunately, the Obama administration’s political correctness prevented anything from being done about it.â€</span></strong></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="588252" data-time="1465972002"><p>
Good read. Liked these two bits when put together:<br><br>
]<span style="color:#333333;"><span style="font-family:georgia;">Even if Mr. Mateen had remained on the watch list, it would not have stopped him from buying a gun. Congress blocked an attempt last year to give the F.B.I. the power to block gun sales to people on terrorism watch lists.[/size]</span></span></p></blockquote>
<br>
Mad men fed on fear and lies with easy access to semi-automatic weapons. What could possibly go wrong? -
<p>I've been thinking about some of the stats that Canefan brought to our attention by posting this BBC article <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604'>http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here's one:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">According to figures from the </span><a class="" href="http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf">US Department of Justice</a><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> and the </span><a class="" href="http://blogs.cfr.org/zenko/2012/09/27/tracking-u-s-citizens-deaths-by-terrorism/">Council on Foreign Affairs</a><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">, 11,385 people died on average annually in firearm incidents in the US between 2001 and 2011. </span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">In the same period, an average of 517 people were killed annually in terror-related incidents. Removing 2001, when 9/11 occurred, from the calculation produces an annual average of just 31.</p>
<p style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">So, all the anti Islam apologists, so keen to assign this massacre as an Islam issue versus a gun control issue riddle me this:</span></span></p>
<p style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-family:Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">If you get rid of Islam, will you'll still get massacres? (actually don't bother answering, I've heard all you have to say)</span></span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="588252" data-time="1465972002">
<div>
<p>Good read. Liked these two bits when put together:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;font-size:17px;">Even if Mr. Mateen had remained on the watch list, it would not have stopped him from buying a gun. Congress blocked an attempt last year to give the F.B.I. the power to block gun sales to people on terrorism watch lists.</span></strong></p>
<p>...</p>
<p><strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;font-size:17px;">The National Rifle Association moved quickly to quash discussion of new gun policies. In </span><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/06/13/gun-laws-deter-terrorists-opposing-view/85844946/'>a piece for USA Today</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;font-size:17px;">, Chris W. Cox, the group’s executive director, blamed the federal authorities for not doing more to stop Mr. Mateen. “His former co-workers reported violent and racist comments,†Mr. Cox wrote. “Unfortunately, the Obama administration’s political correctness prevented anything from being done about it.â€</span></strong></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Sadly, in America the body charged with studying the epidemiology of disease and injury (the CDC), is effectively barred from studying gun violence and related trauma.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2016/06/the-cdc-isnt-banned-from-studying-gun-violence-its-just-too-scared-to-do-its-job.html/'>http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2016/06/the-cdc-isnt-banned-from-studying-gun-violence-its-just-too-scared-to-do-its-job.html/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p> </p>
<p>From 1986 to 1996, the CDC sponsored and carried out public health research on gun violence. In 1993, it funded a study by researchers at the University of Tennessee. The researchers found that “<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506#t=article'>rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.</a>â€</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The National Rifle Association didn’t like that. It lobbied to get rid of the CDC’s Center for National Injury Prevention, and while that didn’t happen, it was successful in another sense. In 1996, Congress added a few lines to the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-104publ208/pdf/PLAW-104publ208.pdf'>Omnibus Appropriations Bill</a>. They said: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.â€</p>
</blockquote> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="588246" data-time="1465970899"><p>Nice article Tim. In the context of gun control the fact this guy was inspired by ISIS is a distraction from the real issue. Until the government is willing to pass laws to aid in gun control anyone, be they wannabe Islamic jihadist, mentally impaired, filled with hate for something or someone/anyone can buy a gun and do shit like this. It won't solve the issue but the problem has multiple risk points and the more of these that can be reduced the better</p></blockquote>
Gun control won't make a blind bit of difference to a religiously motivated attack like this. As I mentioned earlier, guys like this have no fear of dying and would happily walk into a nightclub with bombs strapped to their chest.<br><br>
Gun control will help with the stories NTA posted, where people shoot each other in the heat of the moment because they have a gun on hand. -
<p>Every time this happens lots of posters comment here on how crazy the situation is in the states, I feel the same way yanks must feel about these shootings every time this happens <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/faces-of-innocents/81090723/manslaughter-plea-in-baby-graciemay-death-echoes-moko-case'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/faces-of-innocents/81090723/manslaughter-plea-in-baby-graciemay-death-echoes-moko-case</a></p>
<p>We all understandably get angry about it but it keeps happening, this prick took a manslaughter plea too.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="588258" data-time="1465973339"><p>Gun control won't make a blind bit of difference to a religiously motivated attack like this. As I mentioned earlier, guys like this have no fear of dying and would happily walk into a nightclub with bombs strapped to their chest.<br><br>
Gun control will help with the stories NTA posted, where people shoot each other in the heat of the moment because they have a gun on hand.</p></blockquote>
<br>
I think the sensible local comments over there are those questioning why They make it so easy for nutters like this to obtain what they need to kill lots of people quickly. <br>
The mere fact that assault (not defence) weapons are so easily obtained means they will, from time to time, be used in the manner they were designed. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="588267" data-time="1465975191"><p>
I think the sensible local comments over there are those questioning why They make it so easy for nutters like this to obtain what they need to kill lots of people quickly. <br>
The mere fact that assault (not defence) weapons are so easily obtained means they will, from time to time, be used in the manner they were designed.</p></blockquote>I understand what people are saying, these weapons are too easy to get hold of. But increased gun control doesn't target religiously motivated attacks, it targets people with red mist shooting each other because they have a gun on hand. It targets kids getting their parents guns and pulling the trigger.<br><br>
Attacks in the name of Islam are more common in Europe then they are in the States. Do we need to change gun control laws there as well?<br><br>
If this guy can't get the assault rifle, then he just makes a bomb and then walks onto the crowded dance floor and detonates it. E.G. Boston bombers. If he does that, do we still talk about gun control? Or do we actually get to the heart of the issue - Islam?<br><br>
Don't get me wrong, the States NEED better gun control to minimise the types of killings NTA posted. But it's not the real issue with the latest mass murder, and it is frustrating that so many people are blurring the two distinct issues and focussing on the wrong thing. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="588256" data-time="1465973209"><p>I've been thinking about some of the stats that Canefan brought to our attention by posting this BBC article <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604">http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604</a><br><br>
Here's one:<br><br><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);"><span style="font-family:Helmet;">According to figures from the </span></span><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf">US Department of Justice</a><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);"><span style="font-family:Helmet;"> and the </span></span><a class="bbc_url" href="http://blogs.cfr.org/zenko/2012/09/27/tracking-u-s-citizens-deaths-by-terrorism/">Council on Foreign Affairs</a><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);"><span style="font-family:Helmet;">, 11,385 people died on average annually in firearm incidents in the US between 2001 and 2011. </span></span><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);"><span style="font-family:Helmet;"><br>
In the same period, an average of 517 people were killed annually in terror-related incidents. Removing 2001, when 9/11 occurred, from the calculation produces an annual average of just 31.</span></span><br><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);"><span style="font-family:Helmet;"><br><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:arial;">So, all the anti Islam apologists, so keen to assign this massacre as an Islam issue versus a gun control issue riddle me this:</span></span></span></span><span style="color:rgb(64,64,64);"><span style="font-family:Helmet;"><br><span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="font-family:arial;">If you get rid of Islam, will you'll still get massacres? (actually don't bother answering, I've heard all you have to say)</span></span></span></span></p></blockquote>
Nobody has suggested that getting rid of Islam will stop all massacres. That's absurd.<br><br>
But trying to claim the latest attack has nothing to do with Islam is also absurd. It has everything to do with Islam. Why is that so hard to admit? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="588258" data-time="1465973339">
<div>
<p>Gun control won't make a blind bit of difference to a religiously motivated attack like this. As I mentioned earlier, guys like this have no fear of dying and would happily walk into a nightclub with bombs strapped to their chest.<br><br>
Gun control will help with the stories NTA posted, where people shoot each other in the heat of the moment because they have a gun on hand.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>You're getting caught up on the religious angle. The stats, as Siam has supplied, back up the assertion that religiously motivated killings are a minute proportion of the total so the right's wailing over the Islam angle is disproportionate to the actual threat. I won't argue that it isn't a problem because it is, but let's look at mass shooting as a whole. Gun control won't alter these dirtbags' motivation for killing, whether it be Allah sexual frustration and guilt, race or (like the guy that shot the singer in Orlando a few days before the Pulse killings) just because you fancy what you can't have. But the more controls you place will make it harder for them to get guns capable of committing these crimes</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="588275" data-time="1465976750">
<div>
<p>Nobody has suggested that getting rid of Islam will stop all massacres. That's absurd.<br><br>
But trying to claim the latest attack has nothing to do with Islam is also absurd. I<strong>t has everything to do with Islam</strong>. Why is that so hard to admit?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>But is it? Sure the guy was a muslim and sure he <em>said</em> he was ISIS inspired but he was a regular visitor to the gay club in question, his sexuality has been questioned. Is it not possible that he was just seriously ashamed of his sexuality and something of a nut job and then thought "I know, I'll shoot a load of gays and then say I'm ISIS so no-one will think I'm a faggot"?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There are a few unknowns within this tragedy. His motivation for the crime, the extent to which he was radicalised (or not), the conflicting arguments about his Father's influence coupled with the fact that AQ (his dad) and ISIS are enemies - all these are, at present, somewhat conjecture. What is not open for debate is that he was able to easily obtain a fucking assault rifle and shoot 100 people with it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Jumping on an anti-Islam bandwagon just 'cos some nutter shouts ISIS is not really rational.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>For the avoidance of doubt, I should state that I do believe there is a radical Islamic threat and that this is immediate, ongoing and bloody frightening. But consider this - the purpose of terrorism is to terrorise. If the AQ, ISIS etc terror tactics inspire the level of fear and hate that we are seeing, then they've done a bloody good job. Adding anything to this by blindly attributing acts such as this one to them just adds to the efficacy of their programme. Sadly.</p>
Guns?.........or is that the least of the problems?