The debate about 12
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@Catogrande said in The debate about 12:
So often with England (cricket and soccer too), so much emphasis is placed on what a guy can’t do rather than what he can.
Great point. I recall someone criticising Lineker as, yes, he may score loads of goals but they are easy, simple goals and doesn't score any spectacular ones...
The other issue is England seem to pick players with the same physical characteristics as other countries and hope they will develop. The AB's have a big Samoan 12 called Nonu? No problems we'll Tualigi. He's big & fast and Samoan, the skills have just got to develop, right?
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@Bones said in The debate about 12:
@Victor-Meldrew said in The debate about 12:
Jamie Joseph is an exception who's really good at this - but he can't nail down a midfield slot
I'm not surprised. He would be considered a bit of a bruiser in the midfield though eh.
Too old these days too
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On the AB side of things, Eddies musings add weight to the selection of JG and ALB seemingly the wrong way around.
If rush defences are the problem then it makes sense for your faster more elusive centre to play 13. You either skip 12 to outside channels or 12 looks to take a tackle and provide quick ball that the “three quarters “ can use. -
@Crucial said in The debate about 12:
On the AB side of things, Eddies musings add weight to the selection of JG and ALB seemingly the wrong way around.
If rush defences are the problem then it makes sense for your faster more elusive centre to play 13. You either skip 12 to outside channels or 12 looks to take a tackle and provide quick ball that the “three quarters “ can use.Felt they were trying to do that with Roane in Bled One.
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The other consideration is just how often is the backline 10,12,13. Maybe from lineouts or a Scrum without a blind. A lot of the time in phase play etc players are all over the place both sides of the field.
The 13 probably plays a lot as second receiver during a game anyway. So perhaps the roles are more similar then once upon a time.
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@chimoaus said in The debate about 12:
The other consideration is just how often is the backline 10,12,13. Maybe from lineouts or a Scrum without a blind. A lot of the time in phase play etc players are all over the place both sides of the field.
The 13 probably plays a lot as second receiver during a game anyway. So perhaps the roles are more similar then once upon a time.
Yeah the backiline even from set pieces if often shuffled, to cover defensive weaknesses or try and trick the opposition. Positions outside of things like front row are becoming less and less 'formal' or fixed. Working in shifting pods, trying to generate mismatches etc.
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My thinking is they are looking at JG as a guy who could provide that punch at 12 like Laumape, has a better passing game, has a kicking game and crucially, is smarter on defence than NL, also seems to be someone they use to try secure our ball at the breakdown alot too.
That said, I like most, see him and ALB as being the wrong way round.
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@taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:
My thinking is they are looking at JG as a guy who could provide that punch at 12 like Laumape, has a better passing game, has a kicking game and crucially, is smarter on defence than NL, also seems to be someone they use to try secure our ball at the breakdown alot too.
That said, I like most, see him and ALB as being the wrong way round.
Funny you say that because I thought JG's passing game was poor in AKLD. A bunch of hospital passes, a pass to no one, and one or two good uns
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@canefan as mentioned elsewhere, that pass to no one to me seemed it was to someone, with BB several paces behind, and CC another 2 or 3m further out, seemed too good of a pass (in that it didnt seem a poor pass, seemed a nice firm flat pass) to be that short of CC if he was the target or far too long if it was for the man it cut out.
Or maybe JG or BB got the move wrong?
Usually his passing is better, but as always, could do with improving, still only 25, so plenty of time try to get up to Nonu level passing.
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In France, as far as I can remember, there is no notion of an inside centre coupled with an outside centre. The French teams, at club or national level, have always played with a right and left centres. They usually don't kick. I have in mind the notable exception of Frank Mesnel who was sometimes used as what could be considered as a 2nd Five.
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@cgrant said in The debate about 12:
In France, as far as I can remember, there is no notion of an inside centre coupled with an outside centre. The French teams, at club or national level, have always played with a right and left centres. They usually don't kick. I have in mind the notable exception of Frank Mesnel who was sometimes used as what could be considered as a 2nd Five.
I know that was right traditionally, but I haven't noticed that in last few years' Heine Cup.
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When Nonu was first moved to 12 for ABs in 2006 there was a lot of head scratching when Henry and co said they thought it was his best position. If I remember right he was chosen ahead of Mauger (maybe McAllister too?). I don't remember if he had already started playing there with the Canes?
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@DMX said in The debate about 12:
When Nonu was first moved to 12 for ABs in 2006 there was a lot of head scratching when Henry and co said they thought it was his best position. If I remember right he was chosen ahead of Mauger (maybe McAllister too?). I don't remember if he had already started playing there with the Canes?
He went from a purely cart it up 12 and became an all round 12 who could run, distribute and kick (a bit). Lots of doubters
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@canefan said in The debate about 12:
@DMX said in The debate about 12:
When Nonu was first moved to 12 for ABs in 2006 there was a lot of head scratching when Henry and co said they thought it was his best position. If I remember right he was chosen ahead of Mauger (maybe McAllister too?). I don't remember if he had already started playing there with the Canes?
He went from a purely cart it up 12 and became an all round 12 who could run, distribute and kick (a bit). Lots of doubters
Always had a step.
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@DMX said in The debate about 12:
When Nonu was first moved to 12 for ABs in 2006 there was a lot of head scratching when Henry and co said they thought it was his best position. If I remember right he was chosen ahead of Mauger (maybe McAllister too?). I don't remember if he had already started playing there with the Canes?
He only played one test at 2nd 5 in 06. The others were at centre and off the bench stints at centre and on the wing. In 2006 there was a lot of rotation.
Then in 07 he only had a couple of brief stints off the bench at centre given Mauger and Lucky were the preferred 2nd 5s and Snakey, Mils and Ice the preferred centres.
Fast forward to after the RWC and Nonu and Snakey assume first choice midfield for the mid-season tests and then into the 3Ns. And as they say the rest is history.
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@DMX said in The debate about 12:
Think I mentioned elsewhere how much I enjoyed the '08 season, a big reason was his emergence as a 12.
Yeah, he had a really shit on field attitude and was a frustrating player to watch. He'd make mistakes and not try to atone (like spilling the ball and then just turning his back and walking off). Definitely became a lot more focused.
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Nonu’s evolution was quite extraordinary seen from afar as at first he was looked on as just an effective battering ram, then the next time you see him he was beating guys with guile and pace. Fast forward another year and his passing game had become a strength. I wouldn’t have thought on first seeing him play that he would go on to be one of NZ’s best ever 12s. Kudos to the man.
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@Catogrande said in The debate about 12:
Nonu’s evolution was quite extraordinary seen from afar as at first he was looked on as just an effective battering ram, then the next time you see him he was beating guys with guile and pace. Fast forward another year and his passing game had become a strength. I wouldn’t have thought on first seeing him play that he would go on to be one of NZ’s best ever 12s. Kudos to the man.
Even his kicking game was world class by the end.
