The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread
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@Machpants said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Foster believed that if the execution had been better, and near misses had been contributed to tries, the team would have been justified in sticking to their game plan
2007
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@Snowy said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@KiwiMurph said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@chimoaus that reads like exactly what Argentina did.
It is.
They didn't do this - but I just don't want a return to the 6-3, 9-12 type scores of the past. Unlikely that would happen with the player's fitness that we have today, the ball and pitches are so much better too, but the "defend everything" and reduce the chance of attack attitude is a bit depressing. Argies scored one try. One.
We scored two but were outplayed everywhere else.We need an answer to the way we get shut down. Some of the ball the backs get is pretty good, the forwards are doing just that (going forward - occasionlly) Smith's delivery is great (usually) and then we run out of ideas. We can defend all we want but unless we do more on attack we ain't going to win either.
I hate to say this but I think that we need to kick more (early) turn the rush defence and make them question their positioning / line speed in case the ball ends up behind them. We have been through this before but it doesn't seem to happen.
I agree.
Although better defence would lead to more turnover ball which the ABs thrive on attack-wise.
Completely agree with the AB phase attack though - it looks so generic - the first five stands flat flooted a fair way away from the 9 and then shovels it on. The other go-to-option is to throw the ball to a forward/forward pod fairly wide (where a 10 would often stand) to hit it up. Rinse and repeat. Disciplined defence like the Argies just eat that up.
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Bitch Slap!
'Worst fears realised' - Ian Foster had to win over the fans after his suspect appointment but has failed to do so
Foster was the steady-as-she-goes option for NZR, assuming they actually considered anyone else for the post. Poor Scott Robertson was conned into entering the race.
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@KiwiMurph said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Although better defence would lead to more turnover ball which the ABs thrive on attack-wise.
Let's go with more agressive defence to create turnovers?
If we do a rush we probably won't be in a position to attack, a spot tackle might do it, but then you need the support at the breakdown to get the turnover. A dilemma.If we stopped giving away so many stupid penalties the whole thing would be easier.
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The real frustrating thing is that we have the cattle to improve. If the players were genuinely pants then fair enough but they aren't. It's the tactics, structure and game plan that are letting us down. It also doesn't help with players being selected out of position. For instance:
JG is not a 12
JB is certainly not a farking 14
Ioane is not a test standard 13
Savea should not be starting tests as an 8
TJP is not a scrumhalf's arsehole anymoreAnd then you have players like Akira not getting a look in. Dammit we have the tools and weapons. Just farking use them properly.
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@KiwiMurph said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Snowy said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@KiwiMurph said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@chimoaus that reads like exactly what Argentina did.
It is.
They didn't do this - but I just don't want a return to the 6-3, 9-12 type scores of the past. Unlikely that would happen with the player's fitness that we have today, the ball and pitches are so much better too, but the "defend everything" and reduce the chance of attack attitude is a bit depressing. Argies scored one try. One.
We scored two but were outplayed everywhere else.We need an answer to the way we get shut down. Some of the ball the backs get is pretty good, the forwards are doing just that (going forward - occasionlly) Smith's delivery is great (usually) and then we run out of ideas. We can defend all we want but unless we do more on attack we ain't going to win either.
I hate to say this but I think that we need to kick more (early) turn the rush defence and make them question their positioning / line speed in case the ball ends up behind them. We have been through this before but it doesn't seem to happen.
I agree.
Although better defence would lead to more turnover ball which the ABs thrive on attack-wise.
Completely agree with the AB phase attack though - it looks so generic - the first five stands flat flooted a fair way away from the 9 and then shovels it on. The other go-to-option is to throw the ball to a forward/forward pod fairly wide (where a 10 would often stand) to hit it up. Rinse and repeat. Disciplined defence like the Argies just eat that up.
Exactly. Just side to side bullshit. No depth, just serving victims to the defence on a plate. Unless he gets the ball kicked to him I'm not sure Clarke would even touch the ball. Teams like Aus seem so much better at shifting the ball wide, mixing it up and creating space. Is anyone seriously going to claim that O'Connor or Hodge are better attacking 10s than BB or RM? I've been saying for ages that it's the tactics, not this sometimes mythical ability to "control the game". Good luck controlling shit with a flat backline running at a brick wall.
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@Machpants this sums it up perfectly
If you can tackle the All Blacks, you will beat them. If you don’t, they’ll put 40 points on you.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Doesn't that just depend on what you mean by attacking 10? BB and RM can certainly run at space. Not sure they create all that much, though. Although, RM did it brilliantly in Sydney.
Hodge isn't a 10 for shit. JOC seems reasonable at picking the right play and opening space for his outside man, which is what i consider a good attacking 10 to be, but he's still a part timer in the role.
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The thing about Brisbane (and to a lesser extent Wellington) was that for the first time in a loooong time I thought the Wallabies beat the All Blacks tactically.
As a Wallabies fan it was a real pleasure, above and beyond the win. We have made some small but significant changes to our game plan, and it stifled the ABs - the use of box kicks being a prime example. Miles away from Cheika-ball, we actually seemed to think about what we were doing.
The blueprint to beat the All Blacks has been on display for about a year now: limit broken field opportunities by kicking to touch or to a contest, and limiting unforced errors. Slow down to structured attack and you can contain them. And then it's simply about scoring enough points, of which there are a few ways to do that.
As a non-Kiwi, I do think it's very clear Foster has just continued the Hansen game plan. And that worked for a long time. But to my eyes teams started to pick that apart last year, so an overhaul was required. And yet it hasn't been delivered.
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the "passive defense" thing fucking kills me, not because i want to rush teams and bash them, but because, from my set, it seems counter-intuitive to the way we appear to want to play.
It looks for all the world like the plan is wait for a mistake or a turnover, and punish that hard.
The thing is, it's really really fucking hard to generate a turnover off a gain line loss. Unless you are getting "dominant tackles" behind the gain line, you basically need to wait until deep in to the phase count, when they run out of numbers (see 2/3rds of David Pocock's turnovers) and then it's normally a holding on penalty in your own half.
So yes, the passive defense keeps the score low enough that we can win the game with our attack plan. But at the same time it is my very real belief that the same defensive plan actually reduces our ability to score points.
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@mariner4life rugby is about dominating your opposition...can you do this passively?
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I do wonder if the Mitre 10 cup and SR are causing some of our issues, the players play a certain style of rugby week in and week out. This style is almost baked into a NZ Rugby Players DNA. And this has been one of our biggest assets, our attacking ability has often been without equal.
However, things have changed, individual skill and talent are no longer enough vs well organised Defensive lines. As teams become better at executing the low risk, low error defensive orientated game the AB's have started to struggle. Without turnover ball and space, we seem to starve.
It is now clear the rest of the world have the blueprint of how to beat the AB's, all you need to do is execute it like the Wallabies twice this year and the Argentinian team did on the weekend.
A good coach should have recognised our weakness against this and evolved to either match it or develop a counter. Foster clearly has not evolved and is acting surprised now the rest of the world have us figured out. The AB's will never evolve with Foster at the helm, he doesn't know any other way.
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@chimoaus said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
A good coach should have recognised our weakness against this and evolved to either match it or develop a counter. Foster clearly has not evolved and is acting surprised now the rest of the world have us figured out. The AB's will never evolve with Foster at the helm, he doesn't know any other way.
the past few years we have gone from living life in the fast lane other teams striving to catch up, sometimes they do, but we pull away again, now we are sitting in the middle lane, no matter what.
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@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life rugby is about dominating your opposition...can you do this passively?
i was about to say "it's not actually, it's about scoring more points than the opposition"
but then, this current iteration of test rugby has just become a collision sport. And if we don't want to play it, then we need to find a new way of beating it. Not seeing much evidence of that at the moment.
I think back to Eden Park, and we were very direct that day, sat the Wallabies on their heels, and punished that. It's the only time i have seen it this whole international campaign.
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I guess from a glass is half full standpoint, at least we have some interesting years ahead seeing how we adapt and hopefully overcome these issues. I bet nobody thought the last Argie game would have so much riding on it. I really hope the Argies turn up again and bring the same game plan to see if our coaching staff produce a counter. I would hate for them to fall apart like the Wallabies did in Sydney which would tell us nothing.
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@barbarian said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
As a non-Kiwi, I do think it's very clear Foster has just continued the Hansen game plan. And that worked for a long time. But to my eyes teams started to pick that apart last year, so an overhaul was required. And yet it hasn't been delivered.
It's been picked apart since 17-18, the same game plan beats us "If you can tackle the All Blacks, you will beat them. If you don’t, they’ll put 40 points on you."
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@Machpants said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
"If you can tackle the All Blacks, you will beat them. If you don’t, they’ll put 40 points on you."
Yeah a bit like not getting broken on serve in tennis. You never lose.
If you don't tackle you lose every time. Aus did a few weeks ago.
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@chimoaus said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
I do wonder if the Mitre 10 cup and SR are causing some of our issues, the players play a certain style of rugby week in and week out. This style is almost baked into a NZ Rugby Players DNA. And this has been one of our biggest assets, our attacking ability has often been without equal.
However, things have changed, individual skill and talent are no longer enough vs well organised Defensive lines. As teams become better at executing the low risk, low error defensive orientated game the AB's have started to struggle. Without turnover ball and space, we seem to starve.
It is now clear the rest of the world have the blueprint of how to beat the AB's, all you need to do is execute it like the Wallabies twice this year and the Argentinian team did on the weekend.
A good coach should have recognised our weakness against this and evolved to either match it or develop a counter. Foster clearly has not evolved and is acting surprised now the rest of the world have us figured out. The AB's will never evolve with Foster at the helm, he doesn't know any other way.
i see what your saying but i actually think its due to to the loss of connection between the AB's ad the rest that has caused it
I see Otago playing with a rush defence that has worked as we'll as these guys abilities can make it work, i think the rest of NZ is working on it...but because the AB;s has become a bit of an echo chamber...theyve just tried to carry on has we have for the last decade
