The Cane vs Savea Debate
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@Kirwan said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@reprobate said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Sotutu has been the best 8 in NZ all year, and he's just a kid. Pick him.
Savea is a really good player, but quite an unusual one. A smallish guy pumping the legs and never giving up is awesome, but it isn't going to get you much traction in the early stages of a tight test with an organised defence, and we've seen that a few times now. You need a little momentum, or a little gap, or a tired defender who thinks you're already tackled to get the benefit of that - and that benefit is only going to increase when he is fresh against tiring defenders - which is part of why he's a great bench option. Same goes for his tackling. Certainly skilled enough to cover all 3 spots, and a great asset to the team.
I'd be picking a big guy - Frizz deserves his spot, and Ioane is an option too - and subbing them for Savea once they're poked.Plenty of time for Sotutu, I think.
We've got a couple of games against Argentina and - if we can beat the Aussies next time - we'll have a Bled dead-rubber game against them as well - I think those are the games we'll see people like Hoskins starting and a mix including Will Jordan, Akira, Aumua, Lomax, Papali'i and Grace (though not all at once).
Interesting times ahead.
Seems like we've got quite a queue in the loose forwards awaiting a shot - which might mean we have to wait till next year now to see Big Red Robinson get his chance. That's a pity, because he might be the best of all of them.
With the lack of lock talent at the moment he might be best used in the second row.
Squire might come back on the radar there also?
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@nzzp Clearly helps he is standing next to one of the shortest blokes in the team, maybe he has an inch hidden in his boots. At the end of the day I think his height is largely irrelevant. He takes plenty of lineout ball, makes plenty of metres and dom tackles, everything you want from your 8.
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@Bovidae said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
There are shorter international no.8s around than Ardie. CJ Stander and Pete Samu are examples.
And they don’t have and extra half foot of furs.
If Ardie is going to be out next Rodders then I’m all in, but we can’t expect him (like Rodders) to be something he is not.
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@ACT-Crusader
Like 1.93m tall and 117 kg?
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@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader
Like 1.93m tall and 117 kg?I see short back and sides...
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@voodoo said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@nostrildamus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
> I kind of wonder how you could compare Cane and Savea directly since one is no longer subbing for the other. Perhaps the best test is to say who seems most vital/indispensable?Currently that seems to be Cane, hard to see how Savea would be playing better than him at 7 for 80 minutes.
PS Savea had some great moments at 8 but I am still not convinced overall that he is the best international 8 in NZ but we are not really getting a chance to look at his replacement/sub/2nd in line...Get out of here with that sort of sensible logic!
Don't worry, I can feel any sensible logic I might have evaporating on a minute by minute basis.
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@mofitzy_ said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Cane is obviously a test quality player and likely the best in his position, but perhaps a new coach will consider his captaincy ability. I say this as a big fan of his.
Unless a new coach is going to pick a Savea as his captain then this point is completely irrelevant
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@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mofitzy_ said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@junior
How is it irrelevant? Cane can be starting in the team and not captain.I’m saying it’s irrelevant to the Cane vs Savea debate
No, I see the point.
While Cane is captain, he starts and he stays.
If not captain, that is another factor to consider in the debate.
I'd still have Cane to start, but I'd be tempted to have Savea on the bench.
Arguably he covers 7 plus 6 and 8 the best of the contenders, he is arguably in the top 2 7s in the country, and his speed is handy in the last 20-30 minutes. -
Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Tuiali’i
I thought he was pretty good and a bit unlucky.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
I love Rodders as well (maybe not to the same level as you though) and i don't entirely disagree with your point.
I would, however, like to add a couple of qualifiers
Test rugby is very very different now to 13 years ago (yeah, feel old now?)
The guy in the 6 jersey was the kind of player who had people actively avoiding him, and could also bend the line with the ball. The dude on the other side is the GOAT -
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
I love Rodders as well (maybe not to the same level as you though) and i don't entirely disagree with your point.
I would, however, like to add a couple of qualifiers
Test rugby is very very different now to 13 years ago (yeah, feel old now?)
The guy in the 6 jersey was the kind of player who had people actively avoiding him, and could also bend the line with the ball. The dude on the other side is the GOATAnd, as good as they were, we went up another level once we got Kaino and Read at 6 and 8.
Ardie is doing better at 8 than I thought, but the balance is still wrong. Perhaps with Akira at 6 it could work, but then we’d probably still be better running Akira or Sotutu (or Robinson) out of gas and bringing on Ardie.
Even worse IMO, is that we don’t have many difference makers on the bench right now, and Ardie is so good at being impactful in 20 minute spans, especially against tired legs. I can imagine it doesn’t make you feel like you’re valued, but actually I think it’s a really crucial role - I want him on the field at the end of games going crazy from minute 60 through 80.
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@gt12 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Even worse IMO, is that we don’t have many difference makers on the bench right now, and Ardie is so good at being impactful in 20 minute spans, especially against tired legs. I can imagine it doesn’t make you feel like your valued, but actually I think it’s a really crucial role - I want him on the field at the end of games going crazy from minute 60 through 80.
Do you notice Ardie in the first half of games this year?
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@gt12 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
I love Rodders as well (maybe not to the same level as you though) and i don't entirely disagree with your point.
I would, however, like to add a couple of qualifiers
Test rugby is very very different now to 13 years ago (yeah, feel old now?)
The guy in the 6 jersey was the kind of player who had people actively avoiding him, and could also bend the line with the ball. The dude on the other side is the GOATAnd, as good as they were, we went up another level once we got Kaino and Read at 6 and 8.
Ardie is doing better at 8 than I thought, but the balance is still wrong. Perhaps with Akira at 6 it could work, but then we’d probably still be better running Akira or Sotutu (or Robinson) out of gas and bringing on Ardie.
Even worse IMO, is that we don’t have many difference makers on the bench right now, and Ardie is so good at being impactful in 20 minute spans, especially against tired legs. I can imagine it doesn’t make you feel like you’re valued, but actually I think it’s a really crucial role - I want him on the field at the end of games going crazy from minute 60 through 80.
Tough spot for Fozzie because Ardie is clearly the second best loose forward in the squad right now so having him come off the bench doesn’t make much sense when the other options are fairly wet behind the ears.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@gt12 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
I love Rodders as well (maybe not to the same level as you though) and i don't entirely disagree with your point.
I would, however, like to add a couple of qualifiers
Test rugby is very very different now to 13 years ago (yeah, feel old now?)
The guy in the 6 jersey was the kind of player who had people actively avoiding him, and could also bend the line with the ball. The dude on the other side is the GOATAnd, as good as they were, we went up another level once we got Kaino and Read at 6 and 8.
Ardie is doing better at 8 than I thought, but the balance is still wrong. Perhaps with Akira at 6 it could work, but then we’d probably still be better running Akira or Sotutu (or Robinson) out of gas and bringing on Ardie.
Even worse IMO, is that we don’t have many difference makers on the bench right now, and Ardie is so good at being impactful in 20 minute spans, especially against tired legs. I can imagine it doesn’t make you feel like you’re valued, but actually I think it’s a really crucial role - I want him on the field at the end of games going crazy from minute 60 through 80.
Tough spot for Fozzie because Ardie is clearly the second best loose forward in the squad right now so having him come off the bench doesn’t make much sense when the other options are fairly wet behind the ears.
no disrespect intended, you know your shit more than most on here, but
i fucking hate that argument, and its natural progression which is "pick the 15 best players and let the positions take care of themselves"
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I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work. I feel for Ardie because clearly, he is good enough but Akira, Sotutu and Cane is simply better balanced. And Ardie would benefit the team more coming on with 30 to go with those three starting IMO.
The bench should be used and thought of in a strategic way, there is nothing wrong IMO of having a different type of player who is simply better suited to tired defences, and I think Ardie is that type. BB was electric off the bench early in his career and was a great weapon for us. Not sure we have that right balance with the bench just yet.
