Possible All Blacks 2020
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@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
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@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with @Chris-B , but that's on the premise we have someone appropriate to play the Kaino-esque role. Who that is NOW is, to my mind, unclear. (In a year or two the position is likely to become much clearer, with guys like Robinson, Sotutu, Akira, Jacobsen etc. looking potentially able to get there.)
So, my position is that, for NOW, we're going to have to suck it up and realise that play one of our two best open sides "out of position" (likely to be Ardie playing 8, IMO).
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@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with @Chris-B , but that's on the premise we have someone appropriate to play the Kaino-esque role. Who that is NOW is, to my mind, unclear. (In a year or two the position is likely to become much clearer, with guys like Robinson, Sotutu, Akira, Jacobsen etc. looking potentially able to get there.)
So, my position is that, for NOW, we're going to have to suck it up and realise that play one of our two best open sides "out of position" (likely to be Ardie playing 8, IMO).
...and you're probably right that we'll end up doing this for a while - or maybe not given that there's unlikely to be any test rugby this year.
But, my original point was that if we have Sam Cane as captain, we're further muddying the waters, because there's a good chance he's no longer our best 7.
Beyond that, I'd be quite happy with him as captain. He seems to do a good job at the Chiefs and I think he presents better than Sam Whitelock.
But, I'll be pretty surprised if they don't choose Whitelock - that looked like the way the stars were aligning - and I'm not really worried about the RWC push. He's not a serial offender.
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@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
But, my original point was that if we have Sam Cane as captain, we're further muddying the waters, because there's a good chance he's no longer our best 7.
For Tests, I'd start Cane ahead of anyone else at 7. Ardie is remarkable, but doesn't ahve the same physical impact of Cane. In Tests, for me, that's the deal breaker. I can live with compromised height with Ardie at 8 or off the bench, and it's really tough on Ardie as he is an increidble player, but for me, in Tests, it's Sam all the way.
What we have is an outstanding backup. Better than poor old Marty Holah, who happened to be sitting behind McCaw, or Hewitt behind Fitzpatrick.
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@Machpants while the numbers on thier backs were largely irrelevant, they still seemed ot use Cane more as a 7, whereas I'd have thought his game was closer to the way we use a 6, while Ardie was more in the 7 mould...
gonna be a LOOONNNGG 4 weeks
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Machpants while the numbers on thier backs were largely irrelevant, they still seemed ot use Cane more as a 7, whereas I'd have thought his game was closer to the way we use a 6, while Ardie was more in the 7 mould...
gonna be a LOOONNNGG 4 weeks
I think that is due to the fact Savea's running game was on fire, you don't want to waste a running game with a player making too many tackles and toiling away at rucks. Old Steve decided to test that theory against England and he confirmed to himself he'd made the correct decision in the previous 5 or 6 tests.
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@Nepia think we got our wires crossed?
Cane plays closer to a more traditional 6 role, but still played the 6.5/7 role, while Ardie is more a 7 but was still playing a 6.5 role as well, but I agree with Ardies game you wanted him roaming like like a loose 7?
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Nepia think we got our wires crossed?
Cane plays closer to a more traditional 6 role, but still played the 6.5/7 role, while Ardie is more a 7 but was still playing a 6.5 role as well, but I agree with Ardies game you wanted him roaming like like a loose 7?
No. They played Cane as the 7, Read as the 6 and Ardie as the running 8 ... until the game against England. TBH, I don't think we've played a loose 7 for the ABs since McCaw's early days.
Yes to the wires crossed - I think I misread your post and thought you were agreeing with me, instead, we're lining up to have a 4 week shitfight now.
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@Nepia well whatever your stance is, you are wrong and I disagree, so there.
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Nepia well whatever your stance is, you are wrong and I disagree, so there.
:face_with_stuck-out_tongue:
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what ever way you want to look at it, we dropped a loose forward, picked an extra tight forward, and decided to play a wide game. That's muddled overthinking if ever i saw it.
And still fucked the lineout.
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@mariner4life said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
what ever way you want to look at it, we dropped a loose forward, picked an extra tight forward, and decided to play a wide game. That's muddled overthinking if ever i saw it.
And still fucked the lineout.
To add to this -
When looking at horses for courses - the opposition England were really strong in the loose forwards during the RWC in the leadup to the semi final with their 6/7 combo - its not like they were running a lock at 6.
Really strange.
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@KiwiMurph said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@mariner4life said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
what ever way you want to look at it, we dropped a loose forward, picked an extra tight forward, and decided to play a wide game. That's muddled overthinking if ever i saw it.
And still fucked the lineout.
To add to this -
When looking at horses for courses - the opposition England were really strong in the loose forwards during the RWC in the leadup to the semi final with their 6/7 combo - its not like they were running a lock at 6.
Really strange.
what @mariner4life said - muddled overthinking. The kind of thing you wind up as a committee talking yourself around to after 6 hours in a room doing selections, and then looking back and thinking WTF?!?
Frustrating, but the whole team was mentally off as well, that selection was just a major contributor
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@nzzp said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@KiwiMurph said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@mariner4life said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
what ever way you want to look at it, we dropped a loose forward, picked an extra tight forward, and decided to play a wide game. That's muddled overthinking if ever i saw it.
And still fucked the lineout.
To add to this -
When looking at horses for courses - the opposition England were really strong in the loose forwards during the RWC in the leadup to the semi final with their 6/7 combo - its not like they were running a lock at 6.
Really strange.
what @mariner4life said - muddled overthinking. The kind of thing you wind up as a committee talking yourself around to after 6 hours in a room doing selections, and then looking back and thinking WTF?!?
Frustrating, but the whole team was mentally off as well, that selection was just a major contributor
I've said it a thousand times and I'm aiming for a million
, with Cane starting and knocking people over England don't get their early roll on. And before all the Canes fans have a hissy fit that's not to put down Ardie's defensive effort in the match as it was immense, it's just not what we want him to be doing. -
@KiwiMurph said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
To add to this -
When looking at horses for courses - the opposition England were really strong in the loose forwards during the RWC in the leadup to the semi final with their 6/7 combo - its not like they were running a lock at 6.
England showed you don't necessarily need a tall 6 and 7 if you have adequate lineout options elsewhere.
I think Cane could be used as the dominant tackler at 6 and put Savea back to 7, and then introduce a newbie like Sotutu at 8 as your main ball-carrier.
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@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with @Chris-B , but that's on the premise we have someone appropriate to play the Kaino-esque role. Who that is NOW is, to my mind, unclear. (In a year or two the position is likely to become much clearer, with guys like Robinson, Sotutu, Akira, Jacobsen etc. looking potentially able to get there.)
So, my position is that, for NOW, we're going to have to suck it up and realise that play one of our two best open sides "out of position" (likely to be Ardie playing 8, IMO).
...and you're probably right that we'll end up doing this for a while - or maybe not given that there's unlikely to be any test rugby this year.
But, my original point was that if we have Sam Cane as captain, we're further muddying the waters, because there's a good chance he's no longer our best 7.
Beyond that, I'd be quite happy with him as captain. He seems to do a good job at the Chiefs and I think he presents better than Sam Whitelock.
But, I'll be pretty surprised if they don't choose Whitelock - that looked like the way the stars were aligning - and I'm not really worried about the RWC push. He's not a serial offender.
I take the point, but I think who is the best 7 will depend largely on how they want to play the game. (I'd add that I also polite fully disagree that Ardie is our best 7 - I think that is Cane. Ardie is, however, an absolutely outstanding back row option in all positions - like Chris Mason but much better.)
Similarly, who wears the 7 jersey will depend upon who our 6 / 8 options are and how compelling a case they each make for selection. I can easily see a scenario where we have a 6. S Barrett, 7. Cane and 8. Ardie back row at some point this year because none of the young 6 / 8 options coming through are quite ready. Indeed, if you're going to consider S Barrett as a 6, you probably need someone a bit quicker, like Ardie, playing at 8 to compete with the quicker back rows.
For me, it is all about balance. We can easily play them both in the back row, provided that the third back rower can bring complimentary skills and attributes to the mix.
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@Nepia said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@nzzp said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@KiwiMurph said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@mariner4life said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
what ever way you want to look at it, we dropped a loose forward, picked an extra tight forward, and decided to play a wide game. That's muddled overthinking if ever i saw it.
And still fucked the lineout.
To add to this -
When looking at horses for courses - the opposition England were really strong in the loose forwards during the RWC in the leadup to the semi final with their 6/7 combo - its not like they were running a lock at 6.
Really strange.
what @mariner4life said - muddled overthinking. The kind of thing you wind up as a committee talking yourself around to after 6 hours in a room doing selections, and then looking back and thinking WTF?!?
Frustrating, but the whole team was mentally off as well, that selection was just a major contributor
I've said it a thousand times and I'm aiming for a million
, with Cane starting and knocking people over England don't get their early roll on. And before all the Canes fans have a hissy fit that's not to put down Ardie's defensive effort in the match as it was immense, it's just not what we want him to be doing.I'd add to that the following: Ardie was great, but the team as a whole would have been more effective if Cane had been on the pitch knocking over Englishmen too.
