RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1)
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@taniwharugby Yep - I don't know what they were doing.
It was almost as if having a new system with four good jumpers confused them!
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@sparky said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crotty Vs SBW on the bench was a closer call, but Crotty was the better option against that opponent. I remember Crotty being superb from the bench against England in 2018 when he came on and turned the game.
I can understand why they wanted SBW in the mix as he offers something different to the other 3 midfielders. Neither ALB, Goodhue or Crotty are particularly big so I am sure they wanted SBW's greater size to allow them to play more direct, if needed, and to counter Tuilagi. The problem to me, outside the non-selection of Cane, was more about tactics and how they didn't maximise the strengths of the player that were selected.
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@Bovidae said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@sparky said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crotty Vs SBW on the bench was a closer call, but Crotty was the better option against that opponent. I remember Crotty being superb from the bench against England in 2018 when he came on and turned the game.
I can understand why they wanted SBW in the mix as he offers something different to the other 3 midfielders. Neither ALB, Goodhue or Crotty are particularly big so I am sure they wanted SBW's greater size to allow them to play more direct, if needed, and to counter Tuilagi. The problem to me, outside the non-selection of Cane, was more about tactics and how they didn't maximise the strengths of the player that were selected.
@sparky said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
My review:
Not starting Cane at 7 and not having BFA on the bench were dreadful decisions.
Crotty Vs SBW on the bench was a closer call, but Crotty was the better option against that opponent. I remember Crotty being superb from the bench against England in 2018 when he came on and turned the game.
It was obvious from their earlier performances that the big improvement in England's game at RWC 2019 was at the breakdown. Why was there more work on the week before on preventing Curry, Itoje, Underhill and the Vunipolas becoming dominant there? This makes the non-selection of Sam Cane even more baffling.
Why didn't we attack England's lineout more and earlier?
What was up with Aaron Smith's and Beauden Barrett kicking games? Both kicked too short and at times away from the chasing players.
Why was the All Blacks discipline so poor, especially at key moment of the game before and after half time and after the Savea try when they were hauling themselves back into the contest? Was thorough analysis done of Nigel Owens and his decisions as referee?
The All Blacks ran over 680 metres in that game. Why were they unable to turn that into points?
In short, our opponents seem to have been much more thoroughly prepared for this game.
@sparky said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
My review:
Not starting Cane at 7 and not having BFA on the bench were dreadful decisions.
Crotty Vs SBW on the bench was a closer call, but Crotty was the better option against that opponent. I remember Crotty being superb from the bench against England in 2018 when he came on and turned the game.
It was obvious from their earlier performances that the big improvement in England's game at RWC 2019 was at the breakdown. Why was there more work on the week before on preventing Curry, Itoje, Underhill and the Vunipolas becoming dominant there? This makes the non-selection of Sam Cane even more baffling.
Why didn't we attack England's lineout more and earlier?
What was up with Aaron Smith's and Beauden Barrett kicking games? Both kicked too short and at times away from the chasing players.
Why was the All Blacks discipline so poor, especially at key moment of the game before and after half time and after the Savea try when they were hauling themselves back into the contest? Was thorough analysis done of Nigel Owens and his decisions as referee?
The All Blacks ran over 680 metres in that game. Why were they unable to turn that into points?
In short, our opponents seem to have been much more thoroughly prepared for this game.
To me there's no discussion about SBW. To me he ought to have started or not played at all. I'd have been entirely happy with SBW and either ALB OR Goodhue starting. That said, Crotty ought to have been on bench, and come on around the 50.
One question for me was whether SBW and Jack were 100%.
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Apart from the tactical and selection errors,
I think the Ireland game may have messed with us mentally, and taken away some competitive edge as well , with Ireland being our bogey side in recent times , to beat them the way we did , had us feeling a little too comfortable and happy with where we were placed im guessing
A very similar thing happened with England after beating us
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Wayne's view. Irish game showed our hand too early. https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/the-devlin-radio-show/audio/wayne-smith-talking-the-all-blacks-loss-south-africas-win-and-the-pros-and-cons-of-some-of-the-coaching-contenders/
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@pakman said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Wayne's view. Irish game showed our hand too early. https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/the-devlin-radio-show/audio/wayne-smith-talking-the-all-blacks-loss-south-africas-win-and-the-pros-and-cons-of-some-of-the-coaching-contenders/
Should have kept the powder dry
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@sparky said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@booboo Watched some of it last night. My God, the ABs stank the place out in that game, under pressure basic skill execution let them down. Not good at all.
I really think that you need to give England and particularly Eddie a bit more kudos. Edie's game plan was spot on and England performed it very well. A little churlish to just focus on where the ABs fell down.
Caveat: I know that you guys dissect every AB loss in minute detail, focussing and what your boys could have done better and am prepared to give you personally a little leeway here.
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@Catogrande 100% everyone has, well pretty much everyone. Same way we tore apart Ireland, England smashed us. It was a poor ABS effort, but like a lot of poor efforts, they weren't allowed to play well. But efforts like that leave you vulnerable (was same for us vs Oz in 11 and France in 15) and you need real mature grit players to pull you through that next tough game. We and Eng lacked those last RWC, maybe next one!
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@Catogrande said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
I really think that you need to give England and particularly Eddie a bit more kudos. Edie's game plan was spot on and England performed it very well. A little churlish to just focus on where the ABs fell down.
Yeah, it's a fair cop. They played well, and EJ is a good coach. That said, it's really frustrating to see a team just not execute, and still get close to burgling a win.
@Machpants nailed it too; a few of us talked about the challenge of playing well two weeks in a row, particularly after a big win. England found that in the final too, just didn't show up
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@Catogrande said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@sparky said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@booboo Watched some of it last night. My God, the ABs stank the place out in that game, under pressure basic skill execution let them down. Not good at all.
I really think that you need to give England and particularly Eddie a bit more kudos. Edie's game plan was spot on and England performed it very well. A little churlish to just focus on where the ABs fell down.
Caveat: I know that you guys dissect every AB loss in minute detail, focussing and what your boys could have done better and am prepared to give you personally a little leeway here.
I saw an article a few weeks ago where John Mitchell said that Eddie had watched a lot of tapes and figured NZ out. Watching the replay for the first time I did notice the fishhook defence one side/ Curry & Underhill other side did corral our inside backs well, and led to too many more momentum killing turnovers. By 60 minutes I think we were starting to cope, but then were very sloppy at key moments.
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@nzzp said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Catogrande said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
I really think that you need to give England and particularly Eddie a bit more kudos. Edie's game plan was spot on and England performed it very well. A little churlish to just focus on where the ABs fell down.
Yeah, it's a fair cop. They played well, and EJ is a good coach. That said, it's really frustrating to see a team just not execute, and still get close to burgling a win.
@Machpants nailed it too; a few of us talked about the challenge of playing well two weeks in a row, particularly after a big win. England found that in the final too, just didn't show up
I'll continue the churlish theme.
SA outplayed and outhought England.
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@nzzp said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Catogrande said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
I really think that you need to give England and particularly Eddie a bit more kudos. Edie's game plan was spot on and England performed it very well. A little churlish to just focus on where the ABs fell down.
Yeah, it's a fair cop. They played well, and EJ is a good coach. That said, it's really frustrating to see a team just not execute, and still get close to burgling a win.
@Machpants nailed it too; a few of us talked about the challenge of playing well two weeks in a row, particularly after a big win. England found that in the final too, just didn't show up
I'll continue the churlish theme.
SA outplayed and outhought England.
Not much at that cup between NZ Eng SA. Wales had a gilt edged opporutnity to get to the Final, but blew it. France self destructed as only they can.
Overall though, those three teams all beat each other. I think Ireland were on the wane, but could easily have been a spoiler for the tourney (arguably they were, by coming over to the NZ/Eng side of the draw).
Was a good tourney if you were neutral (pro tip: we're not
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@Catogrande Huge kudos to Eddie Jones and Cueball for coming up with the plan they did. Big kudos to guys Underhill, Sinkler, Itoje and Billy Vunipola who were superb in that game.
My point was when the ABs had half chances in that game, especially in the second half (and that is all some AB teams have needed in the past), the skill execution and the fortitude to do so under pressure were not good. For many years, the ABs have prided themselves on the high-quality of their basic skills. For a number of reasons there was little evidence of that from that game. In a way that hurts more than the loss.
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@sparky said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Catogrande Huge kudos to Eddie Jones and Cueball for coming up with the plan they did. Big kudos to guys Underhill, Sinkler, Itoje and Billy Vunipola who were superb in that game.
My point was when the ABs had half chances in that game, especially in the second half (and that is all some AB teams have needed in the past), the skill execution and the fortitude to do so under pressure were not good. For many years, the ABs have prided themselves on the high-quality of their basic skills. For a number of reasons there was little evidence of that from that game. In a way that hurts more than the loss.
After the performances vs SA and Ireland I have no doubt we had it in us. But when the opportunities came to snaffle the game, like we've done many times during the Shag era, we were nowhere near good enough
