CWC Final - Black Caps v England
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@shark said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Still struggling big time with the injustice of it all. This has been infinity times harder to process than getting reamed by Australia in 2015. We could have - possibly should have - won this final and title.
In 2015 I was consoled by being able to look forward and confidently expect we’d still have a pretty good side in 2019. We were always likely to still have Guppy, Kane, Rosco, Anderson, Henry, Southee, Boult and Milne from that side, and knew we were heading to a tournament played in conditions nearer to our own than anywhere else it could be held. I was confident we’d give it another tilt and distinctly remember predicting that on TSF in the aftermath of the 2015 final.
But fast forward and we’ve come as close as a team can possibly, possibly get without quite pulling it off, and I have little confidence in our team being as strong in the next tournament, to be played in far less suitable conditions. This year our team had three of our top five all time ODI batsmen in it, either at or near the peak of their powers, possibly our best ever ODI pace bowler, and a quality supporting cast with some fast improvers and only a couple of duds. You could say much the same of the 2015 side but throw in our greatest ODI spinner as well, plus a much better performed Southee.
In 2023 we’ll still have Kane and I have no reason to believe he’ll be any less of a player than he is now. So we’ll always be a chance. But I’m not sure how many of the current guys will still be around. Guptill, out of form this tournament but still only 32 currently, will probably be past it at 36. It’s possible we’re seeing him waning now, but I tend to think he’ll come right again and we’ll get another year or three out of him. Rosco will be around 38 and a very unlikely starter based on the longevity of NZ batsmen historically but stranger things have happened and he seems very fit. On balance though, probably not. Boult will be 33 and fairly long in the tooth for a pace bowler. Still a possible starter but highly unlikely to be operating at the same level.
Nicholls, Latham, Neesham, Santner, Sodhi, Ferguson and Henry will all be 32 or younger which helps the core. Add to that Corey Anderson, Tom Blundell, Will Young, Tim Seifert and Adam Milne. Ok I’m cheering up a little, but still need to see at least a couple of these guys develop into truly world class players in order to have any confidence. The Colins will be gone. One should never play ODI cricket again and the other will drift out of the side due to age prior to the next WC. Southee will also be a goner.
So the team for 2023? Well I’m assuming Guppy and Rosco will be gone, sadly. Boult may well be reduced to a Kyle Mills 2015 role as the experienced fourth seamer unlikely to play but in the squad. Kane will be there at first drop and I reckon Nicholls should have well and truly cemented a spot at 4 by then (same as in the test side) but may be needed at the top. Young shapes as a likely contender at 5 unless we stack the middle order with power allrounders in which case I can see Neesham batting there. There’s a chance Nicholls stays at the top of the order and Young slots in at 4, I guess. Latham will also contend for 4. At this stage the opening spots look problematic and particularly by then if Guppy is in fact history. Maybe Blundell takes one of these spots, or Seifert who appeals as a guy who can get us away to a flyer, McCullum-esque . I truly hope Anderson comes back as a true all rounder and reclaims a position. Santner will probably be there as a defensive spinner but hopefully not batting as high as 8 as he appears most unworthy of this spot in the ODI team at the moment. Team structure however may dictate that he stays there. Sodhi should play a lot more for NZ and should be in this squad. Latham looks likely to enjoy an extended run in the middle order. There will be new guys come in but it’s not hard to imagine a lot of our current quality performers still holding their spots. A possible 1st XI in India:
Seifert
Nicholls
Williamson
Young/Latham
Latham/Young
Neesham
Anderson
Santner
Sodhi
Henry
FergusonI’d love to see another hitter at 8. If Santners test batting develops and he starts not ducking under bouncers when we need runs then he may be more suited to 7, sandwiched between a couple of thugs.
We should probably play Sodhi and Santner in every ODI until after 2023 to give them as much chance to improve their skills as possible. Might be a good to find another spinner too.
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@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Frank said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Can we talk about rugby please?
Not just yet.
Cheating pommy bastard, you're banned from commenting on cricket for at least 6 months.
Fair enough, that will still leave me three and a half years of gloating before we inevitably get dumped out in the first round next time.
What's the mood among English cricket fans? I imagine a fair bit of relief to finally get a WC... but in bizarre circumstances.
Difficult to tell atm. Relief to finally get over the line certainly but allied to real sympathy for the Craps and all the Kiwi fans. I would have hated to have lost like that and I agree with all on here that the boundaries rule is a bit shit but... they were the rules that we all signed up to. I'd guess it was put there by some numpty who knows little about the game but felt that this would encourage the big hitters. TV rules and all that.
I don't think that we over here will ever think yeah we won but *. It's a W and a World Cup.
TBH it's not the boundary thing that really annoys me it's the general incompetence of all three umpires regarding the Overthrows and the relevant law that irks me most. Oh for Reiffel and Gunner Gould - I would have taken Gould as an umpire in the final regardless of his nationality - Dharmasena and Erasmus are second rate to begin with
The wrong call on the overthrows is a bit of a shocker alright but I'm never a fan of "well if that hadn't have happened, then we would have won" as you never know if the same outcome will apply. Like if you lose a game of rugby by two points having missed a kickable penalty - the dynamics will the be different had the kick gone over. You can argue less so in cricket but there is no certainty.
Missing a kickable penalty is on the players - correct application of the laws is the responsibility and raison d'être of umpires and unlike an lbw, there is no interpretation or umpires judgement - it was a black/white application. all three umpires got the relevant law completely wrong despite having the timeand opportunity to get it right - Stokes should have been off strike....
You have convinced me. Definitely an *
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@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Frank said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Can we talk about rugby please?
Not just yet.
Cheating pommy bastard, you're banned from commenting on cricket for at least 6 months.
Fair enough, that will still leave me three and a half years of gloating before we inevitably get dumped out in the first round next time.
What's the mood among English cricket fans? I imagine a fair bit of relief to finally get a WC... but in bizarre circumstances.
Difficult to tell atm. Relief to finally get over the line certainly but allied to real sympathy for the Craps and all the Kiwi fans. I would have hated to have lost like that and I agree with all on here that the boundaries rule is a bit shit but... they were the rules that we all signed up to. I'd guess it was put there by some numpty who knows little about the game but felt that this would encourage the big hitters. TV rules and all that.
I don't think that we over here will ever think yeah we won but *. It's a W and a World Cup.
TBH it's not the boundary thing that really annoys me it's the general incompetence of all three umpires regarding the Overthrows and the relevant law that irks me most. Oh for Reiffel and Gunner Gould - I would have taken Gould as an umpire in the final regardless of his nationality - Dharmasena and Erasmus are second rate to begin with
The wrong call on the overthrows is a bit of a shocker alright but I'm never a fan of "well if that hadn't have happened, then we would have won" as you never know if the same outcome will apply. Like if you lose a game of rugby by two points having missed a kickable penalty - the dynamics will the be different had the kick gone over. You can argue less so in cricket but there is no certainty.
Regarding the overthrow thing. I reckon it's more like a bad LBW decision.
It happens. You get bad calls. It's cricket. Move on.
That doesn't phase me in the slightest.
The thing that makes me angry, and also less inclined to be magnanimous to England, is the utter stupidity of the tie-breaker.
I'll forever * this result, and that's kind of unfair on them.
It's a really random metric to my mind and does not warrant awarding a World Cup. I hope I'd be as dismissive if the result was reversed with that same tie-breaker.
Now if the tie- breaker was:
- highest qualifier
- who beat who previously
Or even - wickets in the match (I know that would favour NZ, and some up the thread put forward a passionate yet incorrect argument against it)
I'd be far less angry.
Those reasons are just more Cricket than the stupidity foisted on the teams.
And I then could "celebrate" England as champions. I just can't be that charitable in these circumstances. I am not Kane.
I don't think it's fair on England, as much as it's unfair on NZ.
I think on the basis of my preferred tie-breakers England deserved the title. But now I'll always have that *
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@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
okay so while the emotions are slightly less raw, I'm going to think about some positives i can take out of the NZ performance and for the future:
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ODIs - far superior as a test of technique and a contest than any fucking t20 game - especially when the pitch is not a fucking road, Long live the ODi and T20Is can just fuck right off - I'm looking at the fishheads in charge of NZ cricket admin right here.
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Bowling - we're in a very good place for test cricket as well for the next couple of years - oh fuck that's right we're again hardly playing any fucking test cricket.
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Test Cricket - we should be playing ireland, Afghanistan and Bangladesh home and away regularly - we went ignored at test level for too long or given 3/4 day tests as a sop for us to think we are better or bigger than the new arrivals
Hear hear.
Especially the bold
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@booboo said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Regarding the overthrow thing. I reckon it's more like a bad LBW decision.
Nah, LBW is left up to interpretation - the law regarding overthrows wasn't even applied correctly - it's more like when a catch was not given because the umpires were looking for short runs by the batsmen.
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@shark said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Rosco will be around 38 and a very unlikely starter based on the longevity of NZ batsmen historically but stranger things have happened and he seems very fit.
It is concievable that he makes it. He doesn't have any of the degenerative injuries that usually see batsman forced out like knees or lower back - its mainly been his eyes, balls and that one leg injury and a broken arm against Australia.
It's probably more about the will to keep going and having a young family etc. Probably after this big summer he will sit down and have a think about it and maybe drop a format. I would hope the Test Championship might keep him interested until 2021 and from there perhaps 2023 is not a bridge too far? At any rate he probably doesn't need to be playing 5 match ODI series in Sri Lanka and UAE if he doesn't want to if it means elongating his career.
That's not to say we need him in four years, but it wouldn't hurt to have him playing a Waugh/Misbah/Jayawardne/Dilshan/Dhoni type role batting 6 maybe?
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Living in Australia, it's been amazing to see how much support the Aussies have given the crappers over the last few days. From their media to the fans, they have been with us and have felt our pain. Am going to do something that I have never done before and support Australia in the Ashes. Go Australia!
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@akan004 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Living in Australia, it's been amazing to see how much support the Aussies have given the crappers over the last few days. From their media to the fans, they have been with us and have felt our pain. Am going to do something that I have never done before and support Australia in the Ashes. Go Australia!
I hate myself ... but I am too ...
Stockholm Syndrome?
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@Sneakdefreak said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@akan004 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Frank said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Can we talk about rugby please?
Not just yet.
Cheating pommy bastard, you're banned from commenting on cricket for at least 6 months.
Fair enough, that will still leave me three and a half years of gloating before we inevitably get dumped out in the first round next time.
Who would want to gloat after a result like that? I certainly wouldn't had NZ been awarded the Cup.
I'd actually feel slightly sick about the result if we'd been the ones awarded the Cup. Thankfully there are some good memories I cxan bask in - like knocking out India in the SF - that is something i will saviour for fucking years
We all know Kane would have declared the match a tie and share the spoils with the English team because he's apparently the reincarnation of Mother Theresa in cricket pads.
Sir Kane to you, my dear man.
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@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Frank said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Can we talk about rugby please?
Not just yet.
Cheating pommy bastard, you're banned from commenting on cricket for at least 6 months.
Fair enough, that will still leave me three and a half years of gloating before we inevitably get dumped out in the first round next time.
What's the mood among English cricket fans? I imagine a fair bit of relief to finally get a WC... but in bizarre circumstances.
Difficult to tell atm. Relief to finally get over the line certainly but allied to real sympathy for the Craps and all the Kiwi fans. I would have hated to have lost like that and I agree with all on here that the boundaries rule is a bit shit but... they were the rules that we all signed up to. I'd guess it was put there by some numpty who knows little about the game but felt that this would encourage the big hitters. TV rules and all that.
I don't think that we over here will ever think yeah we won but *. It's a W and a World Cup.
TBH it's not the boundary thing that really annoys me it's the general incompetence of all three umpires regarding the Overthrows and the relevant law that irks me most. Oh for Reiffel and Gunner Gould - I would have taken Gould as an umpire in the final regardless of his nationality - Dharmasena and Erasmus are second rate to begin with
The wrong call on the overthrows is a bit of a shocker alright but I'm never a fan of "well if that hadn't have happened, then we would have won" as you never know if the same outcome will apply. Like if you lose a game of rugby by two points having missed a kickable penalty - the dynamics will the be different had the kick gone over. You can argue less so in cricket but there is no certainty.
Missing a kickable penalty is on the players - correct application of the laws is the responsibility and raison d'être of umpires and unlike an lbw, there is no interpretation or umpires judgement - it was a black/white application. all three umpires got the relevant law completely wrong despite having the timeand opportunity to get it right - Stokes should have been off strike....
My point about a different dynamic is right there. Not arguing about the wrong Umps call BTW.
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@rotated said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@shark said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Rosco will be around 38 and a very unlikely starter based on the longevity of NZ batsmen historically but stranger things have happened and he seems very fit.
It is concievable that he makes it. He doesn't have any of the degenerative injuries that usually see batsman forced out like knees or lower back - its mainly been his eyes, balls and that one leg injury and a broken arm against Australia.
It's probably more about the will to keep going and having a young family etc. Probably after this big summer he will sit down and have a think about it and maybe drop a format. I would hope the Test Championship might keep him interested until 2021 and from there perhaps 2023 is not a bridge too far? At any rate he probably doesn't need to be playing 5 match ODI series in Sri Lanka and UAE if he doesn't want to if it means elongating his career.
That's not to say we need him in four years, but it wouldn't hurt to have him playing a Waugh/Misbah/Jayawardne/Dilshan/Dhoni type role batting 6 maybe?
Well if he drops T20s he should be right because we have fuck all test and ODI cricket in our future.
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@shark said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Well if he drops T20s he should be right because we have fuck all test and ODI cricket in our future.
We have 9 tests this summer, 7 of which are against blue ribbon opponents! But yes, a bucket load of T20s and ODIs.
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@Catogrande I agree about the dynamics but the caveat to that is there were only two balls remaining and Stokes would have been off strike. At that late stage of the game it was hugely influential whereas if it had been 10 overs earlier it would have been an interesting pub quiz what happened next but no more.
I'm not bitter - I am hugely disappointed for the team who I think were the better side on the day. I think the arbitrary nature of the boundary countback is ridiculous but that given England reamed us in pool play and finished above us it's hard to argue they are undeserving. Personally I'd have had another Super Over, but even that is a less than satisfactory way to win/lose
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@MN5 I think you are confusing Hadlee the test cricketer with the ODI one.
Paddles consistency made him a little predictable. His figures are great but he bowled in an era when 220 was a great score and the opposition were prepared to just see him off.
I would have Bond ahead of him if I was picking an all time ODI side. Hadlee would be a good first change option to keep it tight in the middle overs.
I would say Kane was already a greater ODI player for NZ and probably Roscoe too.
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@MN5 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Bovidae said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 Refer back to the 2016 T20 WC tournament in India. Santner and Sodhi were very good in Indian conditions. Santner took 4/11 vs India off his 4 overs and Sodhi 3/18.
pffft that's like saying someone had a good Sevens tourny so let's get them in the ABs !
But seriously, that's a brilliant effort from them both.
Joe Rokocoko 2002...
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@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@booboo said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Regarding the overthrow thing. I reckon it's more like a bad LBW decision.
Nah, LBW is left up to interpretation - the law regarding overthrows wasn't even applied correctly - it's more like when a catch was not given because the umpires were looking for short runs by the batsmen.
Yeah given the factors at play with an LBW decision - height, outside the line, swing of the ball, etc - as we know they are variable.
There is really only one question with this, did they cross?
I was devastated that morning for the loss and seeing the disappointment of the players, but by Monday night I felt pretty proud as a Kiwi and for what we had been part of and the win against India and the drawn final loss to England.
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@dogmeat said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 I think you are confusing Hadlee the test cricketer with the ODI one.
Paddles consistency made him a little predictable. His figures are great but he bowled in an era when 220 was a great score and the opposition were prepared to just see him off.
I would have Bond ahead of him if I was picking an all time ODI side. Hadlee would be a good first change option to keep it tight in the middle overs.
I would say Kane was already a greater ODI player for NZ and probably Roscoe too.
I hear some of this and it’s tough to compare eras but his stats don’t lie. As you say the game was very different in those days and economy rates for one were a lot lower.
Of course Rossco and KW have it over Paddles in terms of longevity but Paddles can’t help that!
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@dogmeat said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande I agree about the dynamics but the caveat to that is there were only two balls remaining and Stokes would have been off strike. At that late stage of the game it was hugely influential whereas if it had been 10 overs earlier it would have been an interesting pub quiz what happened next but no more.
I'm not bitter - I am hugely disappointed for the team who I think were the better side on the day. I think the arbitrary nature of the boundary countback is ridiculous but that given England reamed us in pool play and finished above us it's hard to argue they are undeserving. Personally I'd have had another Super Over, but even that is a less than satisfactory way to win/lose
3 from 2 with your best batsman facing and he didn't deliver the win or 4 from 2 with a tailender yet to face a ball on strike. Now he could have scrambled a single and Stokes would have then had to go for the boundary - so yes it could have been different but imagine if they had applied the law correctly and Boult had yorked Rashid and Wood.
