Ireland vs All Blacks (2018)
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Barnes was really good except that imaginary forward pass. Common sense with the aerial battle and thought he didn't let the crowd get to him too much. Those penalties in the last part of the 1st half were so dumb from the ABs they should have been yellow for "retarded play".
Akira is not being picked exactly because of the nature of the game last night. If that comment needs further explanation then you need to go back and watch Akira play without the blinkers on.
It is obvious to most except us AB fans that the team is in decline. Some of the pre-game analysis from the more knowledgeable NH punters was spot on. -
I fail to believe that they are keeping their powder dry. Just not good enough today.
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Isn't it funny how we all watch the same game, but come to very different conclusions?
I thought DMac was about our best player for the first 50 minutes. He was good under the high ball, despite a lot coming his way, and with heaps of pressure. He did the bulk of the heavy lifting at first receiver in that half as well, with Barrett playing the ranging role. He took the line on repeatedly, and made their defense nervous most times (hence the reason a bloke built like a halfback was the only one not getting smacked), and that take of the chip and offload to Barrett was glorious. He also kicked quite well. I was actually disappointed when the coaches did their "sub by numbers" and took him off.
Whereas we get the curious case of Scott Barrett. He's getting a heap of love, and did play a good game. But my opinion, he played a good game as a sort of 3rd lock, tight and tough and good at set piece. The problem there is he was playing blindside, and i thought his lack of foot speed cost us. Now, that's not really his fault, he's not a quick guy, and asking him to play that way is unfair. But, with Read getting pretty fucking slow, i thought our loose forwards were smashed around the park. Watch how often their 3 loose forwards turned up out wide and had free rein at the breakdown because our guys couldn't get there in time. Ardie had a lot to do as by far the quickest forward we had.
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I'd say the reality is most AB fans have been acutely aware of the slide since we lost to then barely scraped by SA and got extremely lucky with England. Realistically we could have lost all those games.
If the loss to England a few years back was a pebble under the towel, this is a stalagmite.
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@unite said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I fail to believe that they are keeping their powder dry. Just not good enough today.
I wouldnt count on it , but there is the possibility they are keeping tactics for later ,
But they still wanted to win today , no doubt about that
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@nepia said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
In typical Barnes fashion there were a few 'flat' passes missed - yet a perfectly fine pass was pulled up.
If you are referring to the Irish pass that was an AR call. I'm happy to blame Barnes though.
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@bovidae said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
If you are referring to the Irish pass that was a AR call. I'm happy to blame Barnes though.good, pointed call:
Fall of Rome? Barnes fault.
9/11? Fark it, Barnes fault.
Donald Trump? Wayne-O, you bastard
I kind of like this game
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Even if the tactics were way off, there are serious selection questions. The selection of NMS is emblematic in my mind of the backwards nature of the current selection process. It's an unwillingness to admit that a guy doesn't become a completely different player once he puts on a black jersey.
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After the last 7 days, 2018 suddenly feels a lot like 1998, with the distinct difference being that back then we spent most of the year playing much better sides.
Obviously all observations and theories come with the massive caveat that i have absolutely no idea what plan the coaches are working to (if indeed there is one) that might affect performances, tactics, and outcomes.
However, this is a sports forum, and it's a place for us, the great unwashed, to cast our theories out as if we know all, and should be listened to.
Tactics Tim
What the fuck are our tactics? From the outside our plan looks like we spend 60 minutes trying to wear teams out, and then hammer them in the last 20. Our attack has been fucking basic all year, and suddenly looks old-school Boks-esque in that we spend a lot of time smacking in to teams, trying to bash them in to submission. And yet we don't pick personel suited to that game plan. Edge runners, tall blokes, and static props; backed up by a no power midfielder except a dude who hasn't run a crash ball in 2 years.Remember 2003 when we murdered everyone from turnover? Well there are a lot of times when it looks for all the world like that is our only go-to at the moment. Crash ball or punish bad kicks.
This presents a huge problem when the opposition kick well, and you can't generate a turnover because our excellent counter-ruck game has disappeared.
So that raises the question, have we run out of ideas, or did we just spend a year deliberately under-playing our hand?
Defense
Okay what is the go here? We are not playing rush, okay no worries. We have this strange sort of defense where we take a few quick steps then sit back. There also seems to be a point where if they get the ball outside a certain point, we back off and wait for support. We leak a lot more linebreaks and metres than i remember us ever giving up. We're not giving up scores though, because we usually still scramble as well as anyone. We also have started falling off tackles as we start looking for the ball instead of completing the tackle first, worrying about the rest later. That may be linked to the distinct lack of turnover ball mentioned above.Set Piece
Our nice point of difference. Scrum is good (creaked today, but at worst shared the honours i thought) and our lineout is in the main deadly.Players
Well now, the big question, do we have the guys int eh right spots to play the way we want? The bigger question, do the coaches have the stones to drop a big name who may not be fitting what they want? Is there a clear path in their mind for next year? And is that path realistic? or does it rely on a player "coming good" like it did in 2015?That last World Cup actually fills me with a little more confidence. A year out some dudes looked done who were very much not. And we looked like shit as late as the Group stages, but that was part of the plan (apparently).
I really just want to talk about the loose forwards at the moment. Our best 7 broke his neck, and may not make it back. Our next best 7 has been playing bloody well, but is a completely different player. Our captain and only test 8 option is going alright for the main, but is running on what look very old legs. He's slipped in to a tight role i think because he can't play the wide game any more. Who plays 6 is as undecided as any position on the field, hell we have an entire thread on it where few agree. I want to talk about balance. I spoke below about the distinct lack of speed today, and to me, this is our issue. We want to play wide, but do we have the players in these crucial spots to do it? If our first choice trio is Cane, Read, and Squire, that's not real quick. S Barrett off the bench isn't quick either. It's for that reason i can see why Fifita was stuck with for so long, he actually has the wheels to balance that trio out. He's just not good enough. Read's lack of pace actually rules out a few guys for that spot in my eyes, unless Savea is playing, and we change the way the guys operate.
I also wouldn't mind a decent fucking ball runner somewhere in the 13 forwards we pick. One guy who can repeatedly dent the line in the tough stuff. We don't have that at the moment. Our best guys are locks, and that's not ideal, too bloody tall!
In conclusion for this long rambling brain dump, this year was shit, and we have some glaring fucking holes that i can see from the cheap seats. The optimist in me says this year was a holding period to get us through to the ultimate goal next year, while not losing ranking or the Bledisloe. The other option is we have finally got stale/complacent/caught up to. It's far from doom and gloom, we pushed a very good #2 side in the world playing at home right to the wire. It's just not what we are used to.
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taniwharugbyreplied to kiwiinmelb on 18 Nov 2018, 04:41 last edited by taniwharugby 18 Nov 2018, 04:46
@kiwiinmelb I think it is clear they are trying things, but seriously, theres trying things and stubbornly continue with things that arent working.
IN doing things like they have, they have handed teams a confidence boost, while at our best we WERE nigh on untouchable, we are lacking confidence and execution to get back to that IMO.
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Oh, and one more, we are kicking a lot, but our kicks are shit. Either 10m too long, or 10m too short. We contest fuck all, just hand the ball back. Barrett, Smith especially, and DMac need to take responsibility for that, it's just not good enough. Our contested kicks used to be the weapon that got us out of our end, now they just invite endless pressure.
And what is with the mealy mid-range nothing kick offs we can't contest, or that force them back in to the corner?
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@dejo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Pre match fern thread dominated by frivolous argument over whether Smith would have dominated in Marshall’s era and vice versa. Nothing like a loss against worlds best to get people talking about reality again.
Jesus now the fern is to blame for an AB loss for talking frivolously .
True though, we should have been talking about this loss last Wednesday
That's quite a causal effect there!!
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I think it will do us good to get these sorts of games under our belt, after all if we do get into the latter stages in Japan 2019 this is what the rugby will be like. Good to learn a thing or two now and adapt.
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@booboo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@crazy-horse said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel that's why I pondered whether it was a conincidence. None of us will really know. We only saw Goodhue taking the ball on the run once and having enough time to pass to Ioane, and that was from a decent Mo'unga pass.
I am not a Barrett hater before anyone accuses me of being one. I am not convinced he is a world cup winning 10.
Well we know he can kick drop goals at least 😉.
But why?
Free reign to have a crack with ball in hand, always coming back for the penalty if we fucked up ... so un-All Black
Not true. I can recall a number of times that Carter attempted drop goals under a penalty advantage. He didn’t land many but what was he thinking by taking them?
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@snowy said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Looked like a 1991 past it team. Coaches and captain.
Knee jerk reaction? Maybe, but being outplayed like that means that we need to change things.
Reckon Read will get the arse leading to "Bring back Kieran" signs?
Any chance of a Shag-Tana co-coaching arrangement?
I don't like comparing to 1991. That was a cluster fuck. We ain't there yet.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Any chance of a Shag-Tana co-coaching arrangement?
I think for it to match 1991 it would need to be a Shag-Deans combo coaching.
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Greetings from SAFFA land. Look I know you guys are hurting a little but you have to say we are in for a kick ass world cup. A lot of teams on the same level or getting there. Really, for the first time, you can say that there are 4 or 5 teams in it - and maybe one or two more by that time. It's good stuff and great for the game.
Best wishes and much respect - see you guys on the pitch (and in a bar) really soon
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Rancid Schnitzelreplied to mariner4life on 18 Nov 2018, 05:47 last edited by Rancid Schnitzel 18 Nov 2018, 21:56
@mariner4life said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Oh, and one more, we are kicking a lot, but our kicks are shit. Either 10m too long, or 10m too short. We contest fuck all, just hand the ball back. Barrett, Smith especially, and DMac need to take responsibility for that, it's just not good enough. Our contested kicks used to be the weapon that got us out of our end, now they just invite endless pressure.
And what is with the mealy mid-range nothing kick offs we can't contest, or that force them back in to the corner?
This. The kicking has been woeful. There is no point putting up kicks if they can't even be contested. Ireland fucked us big time in this regard and that was even without their best no. 9.
I know this won't be popular, particularly based on his form in the latter part of the year, but I think they need to get Jordie at fullback. If, as I suspect, every team will try and bomb us into submission, then the flying giraffe will be more valuable than the mighty midget. DMac is brave, but he's simply too small to compete.
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@nepia said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Any chance of a Shag-Tana co-coaching arrangement?
I think for it to match 1991 it would need to be a Shag-Deans combo coaching.
Shag-Mitchell?
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Thoroughly enjoyed the game, Ireland the deserved victors but there were just fingertips in it for blown tries on our side. Ireland was always going to grow an extra arm in the last 10 mins at home if they were ahead with I'm sure 2013 still very fresh on some minds. I'm not as worried as many on here, we could have easily taken it and Ireland right now are a superb outfit playing at home. I don't think Barrett was anywhere near as bad as some are saying but do agree that he is lacking that support from a crash ball exponent at 12, be that sbw, laumape or nonu. I'm being continuing impressed with Goodhue's performances, just so solid for a young bloke, long ab career ahead I'm sure.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Any chance of a Shag-Tana co-coaching arrangement?
I think for it to match 1991 it would need to be a Shag-Deans combo coaching.
Shag-Mitchell?
The key to the 1991 combo is that they didn't like each other and Hansen and Deans really don't like each other. I guess Hansen may feel the same way about Mitchell, but he's just a loon and Hansen likes Eddie Jones and Jones and Mitchell are pals.
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@snowy said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Looked like a 1991 past it team. Coaches and captain.
Knee jerk reaction? Maybe, but being outplayed like that means that we need to change things.
Yep. Read has been slowly shifting from great to good for a couple of years now. Which is no sin, but if we want to be the best team in the world, we need a captain faster round the park and with better hands than today’s effort.
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@rembrandt said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Thoroughly enjoyed the game, Ireland the deserved victors but there were just fingertips in it for blown tries on our side. Ireland was always going to grow an extra arm in the last 10 mins at home if they were ahead with I'm sure 2013 still very fresh on some minds. I'm not as worried as many on here, we could have easily taken it and Ireland right now are a superb outfit playing at home. I don't think Barrett was anywhere near as bad as some are saying but do agree that he is lacking that support from a crash ball exponent at 12, be that sbw, laumape or nonu. I'm being continuing impressed with Goodhue's performances, just so solid for a young bloke, long ab career ahead I'm sure.
Laumape would have been perfect in a game like that. When you come up against a brick wall, it helps to have the best wrecking ball.
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An epic Test.
POM deservedly MOTM, and Ireland deserved winners.
Schmidt has coached this team brilliantly to beat the ABs.
The try was excellent.
As many have said, you can't win the match without the ball. And yet that has been the game plan for NZ for some time.
Kick away possession with accuracy, put the opposition under pressure and either
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Turn the ball over against an unassembled defence and score
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Force the opposition to kick badly back to you and regain possession in a better part of the field, and score against a fractured defence.
NZ did this all match but were unable to force the above to happen.
Ireland knew what was coming, and executed practically flawlessly all match.
There was no guile from the ABs.
Honestly it was like watching Hansen coached Wales out there. And that is not a compliment.
An aside, how id Kearney escape a yellow?
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@mikethesnow the accuracy is severely lacking, the kicks are all over the show in distance and trajectory. It's galling.
Kearney, yeah ran recklessly into the "zone" with no intention of jumping, for a kick that wasn't going to be caught without jumping. Certainly put himself in line for a card of potentially either colour - but ref's have been a lot more lax on these rulings lately.
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@mariner4life said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
'lots of stuff in 3 posts above"I agree with everything you've said in those 3 posts, and as one of D-Macs biggest critics at this level, that hurts a little to say. I thought he was really good for 50mins today, and one of the likely ones to break it open against tired legs late. Not sure why he drifted so far left before Irelands try (he had 40m to cover), but equally not sure why Smith charged the line the way he did before the kick - seemed a massive miscommunication.
This game was won and lost at the breakdown for me though. We were too slow to get there and too ineffectual when we did. Scrums and lineouts pretty even, but we just lost key possession through ill discipline and poor ruck work that cost us dear. You can't give a side that kicks this well from hand and tee 8 penalties in the first 40mins. That was 9 points and a mountain of territory and momentum.
The 8, 9, 10 nexus looks fractured to me. Read very slow and out of sorts, and AS and BB have been covered at length in this thread. I think all are probably safe next year though, it would take a very brave move to drop any of the 3. I've still got time for Squire at 6, think he deserves more patience. I don't think Barrett is the answer at 6 for 80mins, mostly for reasons of balance as M4L covers above.
On the positive side, we had BBBR and Read and Coles all back from serious injury and all (hopefully) not at peak game fitness yet. I think we can trust the coaching to deliver the rest plan needed to get them all looking sharp again. If there is one thing we have seen at RWC's through the ages, is that they are not won by a bunch of young inexperienced bucks. They are typically won by teams with a core of hardened vets who have seen all manner of situations. Wouldn't be surprised to see a young wing (Bridge the bleeding obvious but could be another) emerge to challenge Naholo and to put DMac back towards the bench to get Smith back at 15 where he belongs.
I have a bunch of Irish mates who have been sending pictures all day of their celebrations - hurts like fck, but you can't argue its great for the game - 4 teams with genuine chances next year. Lets hope the ballot comes through for me!
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Oh and while I'm here, lots of posters seemingly happy with the lineout, yet we lost two crucial ones towards the end...has Harris been teaching Coles how to throw?
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@samurai-jack common sense yes, consistency no.
Very clumsy/lazy attempt, seen plenty of YC's for much better efforts the past few years.
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Good game from both sides overall. Early discipline issues from the ABs probably gave Ireland a leg-up and they're good at controlling a game, tho they nearly lost it in that 50-65 minute mark.
Also in this initial period, there was a bit of disjointedness with AB ruck work - ball being placed at A Smith's feet while he's still busy organising the next play. The last man into the ruck wasn't covering up properly, and it wasn't always because he needed to clean out.
Barnes was interesting in that he got a lot of calls right, but the big ones he fell down on: 24th minute could have easily yellow carded Whitelock for being offisde, off his feet, knocking the ball down.
Similarly the first Irish try, the steal from POM that gave them lineout position upfield was clearly illegal. Also a yellow card should have been given to Kearney for his tackle in the air.
Savea should have been done multiple times in the second half for not being on his feet at ruck time, but Wayne had put the whistle away by then and let the players sort it out.
AB reserves added a bit of spice I thought, mostly on defence, but they'd been left too much to do.
Overall I think the ABs were just a little bit off, but also there were none of those bounce-of-the-ball plays that often follow a team who are playing well. Ireland have got a bunch of big boppers with good handling, and a back line that knows how to defend, get back to its feet, and play for each other, and know each other's game well.
The parallels between this Irish team and the ABs under McCaw are obvious: a core of players who have been around for a long time, supplemented by young roosters and a controlling 10. The only thing missing was Conor Murray who I'd say would have made Ireland's job even easier.
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@act-crusader said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@booboo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@crazy-horse said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel that's why I pondered whether it was a conincidence. None of us will really know. We only saw Goodhue taking the ball on the run once and having enough time to pass to Ioane, and that was from a decent Mo'unga pass.
I am not a Barrett hater before anyone accuses me of being one. I am not convinced he is a world cup winning 10.
Well we know he can kick drop goals at least 😉.
But why?
Free reign to have a crack with ball in hand, always coming back for the penalty if we fucked up ... so un-All Black
Not true. I can recall a number of times that Carter attempted drop goals under a penalty advantage. He didn’t land many but what was he thinking by taking them?
The point there is settling for the 3. In recent years they've tended to back themselves to have a crack. Would have been better off (IMO) to try for 5.
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@chris-b yeah I think your right. Long term backs have lots of questions. Power players or skill players? Players in what positions? Is Aaron Smith going to regain his game? What tactics work?
In the forwards, only 6 is the question and I think Barrett should start. He is just better than Squire. Other than that it is about getting the performance where it needs to be. And Cane comes back.
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@booboo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@act-crusader said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@booboo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@crazy-horse said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel that's why I pondered whether it was a conincidence. None of us will really know. We only saw Goodhue taking the ball on the run once and having enough time to pass to Ioane, and that was from a decent Mo'unga pass.
I am not a Barrett hater before anyone accuses me of being one. I am not convinced he is a world cup winning 10.
Well we know he can kick drop goals at least 😉.
But why?
Free reign to have a crack with ball in hand, always coming back for the penalty if we fucked up ... so un-All Black
Not true. I can recall a number of times that Carter attempted drop goals under a penalty advantage. He didn’t land many but what was he thinking by taking them?
The point there is settling for the 3. In recent years they've tended to back themselves to have a crack. Would have been better off (IMO) to try for 5.
I may be reaching but looking back, and at the time it seemed the kick decision changed everyone's psyche from there on. By everyone, I mean spectators alike. Ireland rose and we sorted of waited for this inevitable equalizing (?) try.
It was a decision that doesn't sit well, balls on the line, kick for an attacking lineout!
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@kev Yeah - I think 6 is the position we're most likely to see a change in the forwards, but I'm inclined to think Hansen will stick with Squire and most of the other positions are pretty settled. Coles might surpass Taylor, but that would be all to the good - two excellent options. Otherwise the main interest is in the squaddies.
In the backs - Hansen must be wondering about 9, 12, and 14/15, plus a few other questions including quite how much he trusts Dmac and/or Mo'unga.
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Also, fuck it, I'm going there after a couple of nice Barossa Shiraz.
The Irish bottled it. They had the chance to put us right under the pump twice, and took the 3. Most nights, that winds upw ith a loss - we tend to lose to teams that score plenty and put us away; they had real opportunities to get another 7 points and potentially (given how the scrum was going) a man in the bin. Instead, 3 points.
It worked this morning, but I don't think it's percentage play. Holding the ABs to less than 20 points is bloody hard to do; even with us playing poorly, we almost cracked out a couple of tries.
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@nzzp the Irish turned down easy kickable penalties in the first half to go for the line. They were extremely confident in their defence stopping the ABs at the line, or chasing down any breaks the ABs made. Their set piece was working - though their scrum wasn't as dominant as everyone thinks - besides a couple of early shoves where Karl got stood up, the ABs held their own.
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Just watched the highlights of the Maori/Chile game. I know completely different level of opposition, but aspects of their game is what is currently missing from the ABs. Speed. Really good support play, someone always on the shoulder. Ball retention, chip or grubber kick the last option rather than the first. Did I mention speed. Loosies zooming in on the ball, runners busting up the middle.
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