Rugby Championship - what's the point?
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@rustycruiser said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
Honestly, there isn't a point. Training run for the All Blacks every week.
We take one of those games lightly and we lose. We've a history of losing as soon as we take the foot off the pedal (usually after we've wrapped up the silverware, true).
While the Wallabies and the Boks are off their peaks, it's more than a little condescending to call them "a training run". Neither the Irish nor the English found them to be push-overs.
Our dominance dates back to when Auckland constructed a team of pure class. They refused to lower their standards and demanded everyone else raised theirs. Slowly they did. The result was a far better quality of provincial rugby -- fast and accurate, not the reliance on brute power of before.
The world needs to come to us, not vice versa. We're not big or rich.
That said, one poor coach and were back in the pack. Both the great Auckland and Crusaders sides found that out.
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@chester-draws rusty is a Springbok supporter.
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@chester-draws not sure Fred Allen would agree with your circle jerk about our dominance beginning with that Auckland team
pfft millennials...😉
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@mariner4life said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
If you take us out if it, it's a pretty good competition. The other teams are all pretty close, and tend to split their results (except for Argentina's strange mental block against Aus).
Do you think the 6N would benefit from having us in it? (ignoring the huge geographical issue). You would end up with the same thing, and even competition with a runaway leader (less so because every team only plays us once).
Which ever way you look at it, we're the anomaly.
We need to find someone else to play
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@kiwiinmelb our day will come I reckon.
This last decade or more has been truly remarkable but while I savour the sweet taste, there's a lot of us that remember what bitter is eh?
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@siam said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
@kiwiinmelb our day will come I reckon.
This last decade or more has been truly remarkable but while I savour the sweet taste, there's a lot of us that remember what bitter is eh?
Yeah , it has been a great ride ,
And i think we have more in front of us ,last year we were a little flat at times ,
but we are starting to hum again
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@chester-draws said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
@rustycruiser said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
Honestly, there isn't a point. Training run for the All Blacks every week.
We take one of those games lightly and we lose. We've a history of losing as soon as we take the foot off the pedal (usually after we've wrapped up the silverware, true).
While the Wallabies and the Boks are off their peaks, it's more than a little condescending to call them "a training run". Neither the Irish nor the English found them to be push-overs.
Our dominance dates back to when Auckland constructed a team of pure class. They refused to lower their standards and demanded everyone else raised theirs. Slowly they did. The result was a far better quality of provincial rugby -- fast and accurate, not the reliance on brute power of before.
The world needs to come to us, not vice versa. We're not big or rich.
That said, one poor coach and were back in the pack. Both the great Auckland and Crusaders sides found that out.
Totally agree.
I think what we have to get our heads around is that the ABs have worked out a style that when the ability/effort margin is a few % the score margin is a lot.
The scores look like thrashings but the effort has to be fully focussed or the result will switch.
We don't get many close wins, we get close losses or big wins that look easy on paper. -
Would you be happy for the ABs to lose more often in order to make RC more tense?
While you are deciding please take a seat on the rock over there or if you prefer there is a hard place to the right.
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It's going to sound ridiculous, but in some ways the All Blacks are ruining World Rugby. It's obviously not their fault, but if things pan out as you would expect, another World Cup beckons.
As in all sports, it's great to watch champions at the top of their game, but it's also great to see the occasional underdog step up and knock the champ off their perch.
It's been way too long since the ABs have been knocked off their perch in a game that really matters. I'm not sure the Lions really count, either.
I think NZ's dominance of the game at all levels has contributed to the malaise here (there are 50 other factors, sure).
Maybe it's everyone else's fault for not being good enough. But I'm starting to get a bit bored with the state of rugby. It just feels like the same thing year after year. NZ dominance is a part of that, as is similar draws, Wallaby struggles, Super issues, etc.
But NZ dominance is undoubtedly part of it.
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@barbarian I felt the same way when Auckland dominated NZ rugby in the late 80s/early 90s.
Also felt the same way about the Australian cricket team through the Taylor/Waugh/Ponting years.
I guess the one thing these eras teach us is that all good thing come to an end!
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But you'd have to admit we're approaching a decade of this, and there are no signs of it slowing down.
Australia's cricketing 'golden era' lasted from, roughly, 1995-2005 (from Steve Waugh's heroics in the Windies to the Ashes in 05).
I'd argue the All Blacks have dominated fairly solidly since 2008, and the gap could be as wide now as it's ever been.
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@barbarian said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
But you'd have to admit we're approaching a decade of this, and there are no signs of it slowing down.
Australia's cricketing 'golden era' lasted from, roughly, 1995-2005 (from Steve Waugh's heroics in the Windies to the Ashes in 05).
I'd argue the All Blacks have dominated fairly solidly since 2008, and the gap could be as wide now as it's ever been.
Grand Slam was in 2006, and we thrashed the World Cup holders in 2004, and of course the 3-0 Lions series in 2005. I'd argue that we've been dominant for even longer (it's why the Barnes performance was such a big deal in 2007).
As has been said before, it's not up to use to get worse, it's up to other teams to find ways to improve. There is more than one way to play rugby, and if England and the Boks play to their strengths they could strangle the All Blacks style of play.
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Just look at Ireland - limited gameplan, but executed really well.
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@tim said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
I'm guessing that it isn't a coincidence that the best NH team, Ireland, centrally contracts its players.
It helps, but everyone wants to play for winners. The French don't lack for players, and England lose far less to overseas clubs than we do. Central contracting would make zero difference for them.
I think it is mainly two things.
Firstly, who has the best coaches. The Boks and French in particular have had a series of poor to terrible ones. Wales' and Ireland's relative success have not coincidentally been since they stopped only picking locals.
NZ success has, IMO, been about having the best coaches, not athletes. I can only assume NZ gets the best coaches because we have a very non-hierarchical society, so the school and club you went to aren't half as important as how good you are. Also our system encourages innovation at the lower levels.
Secondly, NZ has a policy of expecting Super sides to play styles that are consistent with the AB game. That filters down to provinces, clubs and schools. We drill and pick from young for skill and athleticism, not size.
So when the ABs want to play a fast game, they have players used to it. When the French want to, they have players who play the horrible French style at club level who cannot adapt quickly enough.
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I don't think it would zero difference to England, look at all the club v country battles there are. But I think the coaching and rugby systems in NZ are second to none - and Ireland have followed suit. Like us they don;t have huge amounts of money, tho more than us, but using the lure of Ireland jersey and great coaching plus good player management ( see how much time they give Sexton off) to keep their players
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@machpants said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
I don't think it would zero difference to England, look at all the club v country battles there are. But I think the coaching and rugby systems in NZ are second to none - and Ireland have followed suit. Like us they don;t have huge amounts of money, tho more than us, but using the lure of Ireland jersey and great coaching plus good player management ( see how much time they give Sexton off) to keep their players
The player management control idea was brought in by Eddie O’Sullivan in 2004. Other unions started giving out about Provinces fielding “second string teams” aka “not putting test players out for every league game” in 2011 after Leinster won the Heineken again. 14 years later, it’s become the key reason for Ireland’s success along with the tax breaks they give to players. Apparently.**
IRFU have more money than NZ? I doubt it.
NZRU had turnover of $NZ 250m last year, of which the Lions tour contributed about $40m. So let’s say $210m which is €118m at today’s rates.
IRFU turnover last year €85.7m after an exceptional bumper year with Grand Slam and European Cup/PRO14 that added €9m extra to the normal annual pot.
(Previous year NZRU turnover $162m - €91m.)**In my view, the single best investment and new policies in the IRFU in the last decade was the introduction of the Player Succession Policy in 2012 from Eddie Wigglesworth that set organised and planned rules/guidelines on foreign player contracts, and the Domestic Player Pathway policy from David Nucifora which shifted monies from part-funding foreign player contracts into the four provincial academies and effectively tripling the number of academy players in the last four years. Phillip Browne, the CEO, goes largely unheralded as an extremely good top administrator who allows his people to function and facilitates them to do their job by getting out of their way.
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@barbarian said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
It's going to sound ridiculous, but in some ways the All Blacks are ruining World Rugby. It's obviously not their fault, but if things pan out as you would expect, another World Cup beckons.
Dude, we sacrificed ourselves for the good of world rugby for 24 years. Surely we deserve some payback ...
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@barbarian said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:
It's going to sound ridiculous, but in some ways the All Blacks are ruining World Rugby. It's obviously not their fault, but if things pan out as you would expect, another World Cup beckons.
As in all sports, it's great to watch champions at the top of their game, but it's also great to see the occasional underdog step up and knock the champ off their perch.
It's been way too long since the ABs have been knocked off their perch in a game that really matters. I'm not sure the Lions really count, either.
I think NZ's dominance of the game at all levels has contributed to the malaise here (there are 50 other factors, sure).
Maybe it's everyone else's fault for not being good enough. But I'm starting to get a bit bored with the state of rugby. It just feels like the same thing year after year. NZ dominance is a part of that, as is similar draws, Wallaby struggles, Super issues, etc.
But NZ dominance is undoubtedly part of it.
I disagree with nearly every sentence in this bar this one:
As in all sports, it's great to watch champions at the top of their game, but it's also great to see the occasional underdog step up and knock the champ off their perch.
