All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson
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@pakman big difference to doing that in basically your first test after 76 minutes when you are a forward out wide, as opposed to doing it on the wing when the guy you're lining up has already been tackled before you get there and you're in your natural position with plenty of time to scan, at the start of the match.
@Crucial that was a shockingly poor decision by a guy we should expect much more of. There's no good explanation for such awful defence.
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@bones said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@pakman big difference to doing that in basically your first test after 76 minutes when you are a forward out wide, as opposed to doing it on the wing when the guy you're lining up has already been tackled before you get there and you're in your natural position with plenty of time to scan, at the start of the match.
@Crucial that was a shockingly poor decision by a guy we should expect much more of. There's no good explanation for such awful defence.
I think this incident is growing it's own set of 'alternate facts'. NMS made contact with the ball carrier first, he didn't arrive after a tackle was already being made. In fact if it wasn't for a desperate no look pass out of contact that worked it would have been a great piece of defence as they would have affected a two on one situation with either a spilt ball or a turnover chance The margin was miniscule and worth the risk of the pass being made as he had a sweeper already in place and more coming with plenty of time to come across.
From the Argies POV the ball carrier took a chance in getting the ball away and it worked out due to the brilliance of the winger.
If anything, NMS made a split second decision to shut down the movement before he got in a one on one that he probably wouldn't have been able to defend anyway. Worse still if Frizell hadn't made it in time (and he was slightly behind NMS in timing) there was a big risk that NMS could have been in a two on one.
You are traditionally taught as a winger to trust your inside defenders and stay out but there are times when you can tell the inside won't quite make it and your best bet is to try and close things down yourself because you will end up ineffective.
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@crucial everything you say is true, but none of it applies to that particular situation - he should have stayed out, the inside man was covered and he created them an overlap and hence a try. As I said previously I think a lot of the criticism is rubbish, but not that one.
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@crazy-horse said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
It's the little things with Goodhue that makes him so classy. Last night for example, in the first half the ABs decided to run the ball out from inside the 22. They looked like they were in a spot of trouble, but Goodhue straightened before receiving the ball, went into contact and recycled the ball efficiently allowing the ABs to clear. Not a big deal to the casual observer, but lots of players would have held the outside line and risked being isolated or forced into touch.
My 88 year old dad noticed that straightening. Reminiscent of his old favourite, Johnny Smith, the original wonderful AB centre.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@crucial everything you say is true, but none of it applies to that particular situation - he should have stayed out, the inside man was covered and he created them an overlap and hence a try. As I said previously I think a lot of the criticism is rubbish, but not that one.
Disagree.
You say 'should have' and that is analysis based on outcome rather than situation.
IMO there was a higher chance of the pass being disrupted and a turnover created than an overlap being used.
Argies pushed the pass and it worked out for them.
There is a big assumption from those criticising NMS' decision that he would have been able to tackle the opposite winger who would have taken the ball at speed and, as he showed, is evasive and strong. He made two other ABs look like complete numpties on his way to the line. It could have been three. -
@crucial could have been, instead one made himself look like a numpty all on his own. Didn't even risk the really tough option of defending his opposite one on one with the sideline for help. That would have been outlandish, no winger worth his salt has ever done that before.
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Lots of good efforts from less experienced ABs. One BIG gripe. Missing 25 or so tackles is NOT acceptable.
Frizzell's alignment gaffe is not huge demerit against no other missed tackles.
On comparison with Akira, from what I've read, Frizzell's charging onto balls in midfield is what TWM WANT from Akira. He is a beast from a standing start, but historically bursting onto passes has not been his strong point.
ALB back of the week for me. -
@bones said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
@crucial could have been, instead one made himself look like a numpty all on his own. Didn't even risk the really tough option of defending his opposite one on one with the sideline for help. That would have been outlandish, no winger worth his salt has ever done that before.
Considering you thought he didn't even beat Frizell to the first tackle I'm not sure how much faith to put in your analysis
My point is that it wasn't nearly as simple as a the schoolboy error it is being made out to be. He went for what he calculated was the best option and was left looking silly by a rushed no look pass in contact that found it's recipient. Watch the ball carrier and he is the one that looks like a panicked newbie.
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My point about Frizell missing a tackle was more that tackle stats said he hadn't missed one, but that incident doesn't count as a miss and then RM gets attributed with one when it wasn't totally his fault....just highlighting how stats alone are misleading
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@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
Missing 25 or so tackles is NOT acceptable.
We do that every test, it is part of the system now. Rushing defence which often slows the ball carrier enough for next tackler to be effective. Missed tackles are expected, the system works around it. The rush makes the opposition make errors = tries for us. Missed tackles as a blanket stat is now so pointless with the way defensive systems work nowadays.
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I thought one guy that cops a bit of crap , from myself included , that played really well was Ardie ,
Just thought he worked tirelessly, which isn’t what we usually associate with him .
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
they're the new france. big forwards, small backs playing a high skill, high risk game. when it comes off, it's bloody hard to stop and great to watch, good luck to them. they'l be disappointed with the scrum, but i think they were missing a prop? would also like to see Isa back - has he been injured or something? as long as they keep the filth to a minimum they are one of the best teams to watch i reckon.
Isa moved to France.
I'm not 100% up to date with current Argentinian selection policies on overseas based players. But at the time he moved, it made him no longer available.
I think they'll all be availabloe for 2019 RWC though.
Big players potentially to come back:
- Isa
- Imhoff
- Figallo
There's also Cordero in England (but he's probably already been usurped). Plus some more props.
Isa the best of them, but Figallo probably the most important based on their current props.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
I think this incident is growing it's own set of 'alternate facts'. NMS made contact with the ball carrier first, he didn't arrive after a tackle was already being made. In fact if it wasn't for a desperate no look pass out of contact that worked it would have been a great piece of defence as they would have affected a two on one situation with either a spilt ball or a turnover chance The margin was miniscule and worth the risk of the pass being made as he had a sweeper already in place and more coming with plenty of time to come across.
WTF are you talking about Willis? NMS left his man and attempted a tackle on an attacker who was covered. In doing so he left his man unmarked and with space. It wasn't a lucky pass either, it was quick hands, much like what All Blacks do. The change in strip doesn't make one lucky and another skilful.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina - Nelson:
IMO there was a higher chance of the pass being disrupted and a turnover created than an overlap being used.
We have your opinion and what actually happened.
Argies pushed the pass and it worked out for them.
There is a big assumption from those criticising NMS' decision that he would have been able to tackle the opposite winger who would have taken the ball at speed and, as he showed, is evasive and strong. He made two other ABs look like complete numpties on his way to the line. It could have been three.It could have been 15. Holy fuck, these Argentinian wingers are unstoppable!
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@crucial Could not disagree more. That was an awful piece of defending by NMS that a schoolboy coach would be livid with. The inside player was covered. You don't rush up and double team the ball carrier - that is some weird winger defending that you see in league a lot. You stay out on your man and use the sideline as your friend in defending and trust your inside defense (when it was 2 on 2 as it was). You don't create an overlap by coming in to tackle a guy that already has a defender on him.
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It appears Argentina have eased their self-imposed restriction on European-based rugby players as of part way through this year.
Here is a link with Argentina's player depth.
If interested look under 'Exiles' for each position to see what players in Europe they can potentially call on.
Player Pool – Argentina - Americas Rugby News
ARGENTINA Includes all players included in senior training squads and overseas professionals. Players may be removed from the pool after two years of international inactivity. Last updated November 15, 2024. NAME POS HGT WGT DOB CAPS DEBUT CLUB #1 LOOSEHEAD PROP Calles, Ignacio LH/HK 1.85 6-1 116...
I'll stick to the ones I know.
LHP: Paz
THP: Figallo & Herrera
Lock: Galarza
No 8: Isa
Centre: Socino
Wing: Imhoff, CorderoThere are also be plenty of uncapped or low capped Argentinians in Top14 or Prem, Pro14 - some of whom are probably top class, but I don't know them.
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