All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
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@Crazy-Horse Thanks for your thoughts mate, very interesting and nice to see some credit being attributed to the Lions; however I don't share your concerns re the All Blacks, they've not been too bad mate.
Interesting view on the rush/offside defence thing. For sure a rush defence is going to be on the margin all bloody game, but a few things make me think that it isn't quite as bad as has been suggested. As you've said, whilst this has been an issue for fans all the way through, it has not been quite so much an issue for a selection of refs and ARs, of different nationalities. Also we have not heard anything much (at least up here we haven't) from the NZ coaching team. I know Hansen doesn't moan much in public but he does have blokes to do that for him when required. Lastly, the Lions have given up a fair few penalties for offside (as you will with a rush defence), so it is not as if it is not being policed. Yeah, no doubt some have been missed but that's pretty standard.
The line out shit is just fucking embarrassing though and I'm ashamed that we have an Englishman as forwards coach and line out specialist that is letting this happen. Refs should be all over that.
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The way the Lions are doing the rush D is to be so on the edge and anticipate as a line that usually no one looks obviously 'the guy'. Most times they are certainly moving before the ball is lifted but are also not planting the first step until right on the lift. It is well coached and usually executed well.
They are often getting it wrong though and the ref is telling them to get back which they do and avoid the penalty (but have affected the play by slowing it down).It's boundary pushing for sure but that's what good teams do.
I stated earlier in the series that I thought the game needs tidying to avoid this 'style' shutting down a game. Laws have been implemented with 5m back from scrums and 10m back from line outs to create space so it's not like this is a radical concept. You can't have a 1 or 2 metre back law at tackle/rucks, it would be to hard to rule on, but you can put the onus of teams to show they are clearly onside rather than clearly offside. Make doubt go in favour of the attacking side and the game would be 'cleaner'
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the sky does tend to fall after a loss, purely because we don't have many.
We have had significant losses to Aus, and when needing to back up the following week people were concerned about how they would respond.
We still have an awesome group of players, yes our depth is being tested, but our depth is unrivalled, and while there is a drop off from some players to the next lot, they are still world class.
What the changes does is brings us back to the pack, or pride as this case might have it
but a solitary loss does not make us a poor team, and while a 2nd loss would be unprecedented in this recent era, and the tour deemed a failure (from our perspective) I'm not convinced it will be that bad, although I don't believe we will lose.This team has been in this position before, coming off a loss where we have not performed well, had injuries, having stinging criticism about our play in the media, and we usually respond the best way possible, by turning in an excellent performance.
It is looking likely the weather will play a part again, but I don't see us playing as poorly again (hoping for 15 v 15) or allowing the Lions to dictate terms to us, forcing us to adjust.
Bring on Saturday!
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
I am 100% the sky is falling down and unfortunately for me I donât have any chill pills. Hereâs why.
⢠Despite NZ winning the first test and almost winning the second while being a man down, there was enough in those two games to suggest to me this Lions team is one of the best teams I have seen in NZ for a very long time. And the ABs have looked vulnerable in areas where they have been very good in the past.
⢠High balls. It started with Ben SMITH dropping ones he would normally take in Auckland and it continued with Dagg putting a few down in Wellington. Plus Dagg having to pretty much take them all Wellington because of our wing selections.
⢠Kick off reception and clearing. The Lions are doing a bloody good job here. They are getting the ball high and deep and their chase is nicely timed for when the ABs take the ball. We seem to be getting pinned down near our 22 after scoring, giving the Lions a chance to bite back. There was a good example of this on the weekend near the end of the game. The ABs had just kicked a penalty and the lions kicked off deep as usual. Cruden took the ball and hesitated to kick it for fear of the ball being charged. A ruck followed and the ball was cleared to an under pressure kicker (possibly Barrett) who only managed to clear it to around the 22. The Lions scored a try in the following phases. This has happened a lot the whole tour. The Lions have been able to keep in touch because they have pressured the NZ teams outstandingly well at restart time.
⢠Line outs. We are starting to see body language in the NZ lineout reminiscent of the bad old days. I know there are extenuating circumstances with the Lions yelling over our calls and sometimes setting up camp down the middle of the lineout, but shit we look nervous. Taylor is taking an age to throw the ball in and when that happens you know the lineout is under pressure. I havenât seen the lineout stats and I am guessing they wonât look too bad, but fuck we are looking nervous in that area.
⢠Counter attack. Even in Auckland when we had a full quota of players the Lions looked more dangerous than us on the counter attack. And they were creating more chances to counter attack. It seems when they spill the ball they are either first to the loose ball or if an AB gets there first he is immediately set upon by a number of Lions meaning a shitty pass gets thrown or we end up in a ruck situation where fast ball is not coming. When the ABs spill the ball it seems like the Lions have very little trouble in moving the ball wide to have a go.
⢠Rush defence. This is a magnificent part of the Lions game. Maybe they are offside a lot of the time but they have been doing it all tour and NZ teams, apart from every now and then, have looked very ineffective against it. I find myself yelling at the TV that the bastards are offside but game in game out the refs have not pinged them for it. Why? Are the Lions in fact not offside but appear that way to us/me because they are outstanding at this facet of the game? Surely if they live offside Hansen would have brought this to the attention of the refs pre game, but nothing seems to have changed.
⢠AB midfield/backline. We got away with it last year but I think we are seeing that Nonu and Smith are not proving easy to replace. To borrow a basketball term, at this stage in their careers, apart from Barrett and Aaron Smith, the NZ backline seems to be made up of role players. There doesnât seem to be anyone out wide (especially with the absence of Ben Smith) who seems capable of saying âFuck this, give me the ball I am going to win this bloody game.â Nonu used to do it against the very best, so too Smith. Noone is doing it for the ABs currently. This is why, despite me being a big fan of Goodhue and I am picking him to be a long term AB, I would not pick him for this weekend. Even for the Crusaders he is a role player at the moment, a very, very good one, but I have yet to see him take a game by the scruff of the neck. I am not sure the ABs have anyone willing and able (apart from 9 and 10) to take a game by the scruff.All of the above is tempered by last weekend. Because the ABs were down to 14 we have no idea of the relative merits of the two teams. Despite the score line in Auckland I felt that game could have gone either way. I also feel that the Lions nearly self-destructed in Wellington rather than the ABs outplaying the Lions during the time we built a lead. It seemed to me when the Lions finally got their shit together they scored pretty easily. Was this because the ABs were tiring? Who knows and we wonât know until the weekend.
I am sure I have forgotten something to worry about and I am sure I will remember in the dead of night when I am trying to sleep. I need a hug and somebody to tell me everything is going to be Ok.
Exhibit A your honour.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel guilty as charged your honour
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@Crazy-Horse sentenced to 3 years supporting the Wallabies, after which we will require a statement form you about your time so as to determine if you have learnt your lesson about how lucky you are to be an AB fan and the expectations of confidence (or arrogance if you listen to NH media) that comes with the role.
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NZ to win by 16-20 is 6/1
Lions to win by 6-10 is 12/1Hmmm. Heart or Head???
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@Pot-Hale always heart bro, always.
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@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
NZ to win by 16-20 is 6/1
Lions to win by 6-10 is 12/1Hmmm. Heart or Head???
There's the view that it is always wise to bet against your team, then if they lose at least you've won some dosh. But by the cringe, any beer bought with that money would be bitter indeed.
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@Catogrande I never bet against my team, not the ABs or Northland (and the latter I could be make lots of money in small increments)
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I'll wait until team announcement and see if I get a feeling in me water
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@taniwharugby Yeah mate, I'm the same. I just can't bring myself to do it.
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@Crazy-Horse Great post. Interesting point about game breakers vs role players.
Speaking of game breakers. I think fairly or unfairly from an AB point of view a lot of eyes are going to be on Beauden Barrett in this game. He's the reigning World Player of the Year (leaving aside the history of this award is a little suspect) and he's replacing a guy who in the last Lions tour had one of the greatest 10 performances of all time - unfairly he's naturally going to be compared to Carter.
Now for Beauden he hasn't had the smoothest series - he's had to move back to fullback, his backline keeps changing, he's missed some kicks in Wellington/down to 14 men in Wellington etc.
Beauden is known for being able to create a magic play to either score or create a try. So far that hasn't happened in the series.
Can the Lions contain him in the 3rd test or will be spark something. It will be fascinating.
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@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
I'll wait until team announcement and see if I get a feeling in me water
I think that will be Thursday, but you guys don't always play by the rules
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@Catogrande said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Crazy-Horse Thanks for your thoughts mate, very interesting and nice to see some credit being attributed to the Lions; however I don't share your concerns re the All Blacks, they've not been too bad mate.
Interesting view on the rush/offside defence thing. For sure a rush defence is going to be on the margin all bloody game, but a few things make me think that it isn't quite as bad as has been suggested. As you've said, whilst this has been an issue for fans all the way through, it has not been quite so much an issue for a selection of refs and ARs, of different nationalities. Also we have not heard anything much (at least up here we haven't) from the NZ coaching team. I know Hansen doesn't moan much in public but he does have blokes to do that for him when required. Lastly, the Lions have given up a fair few penalties for offside (as you will with a rush defence), so it is not as if it is not being policed. Yeah, no doubt some have been missed but that's pretty standard.
The line out shit is just fucking embarrassing though and I'm ashamed that we have an Englishman as forwards coach and line out specialist that is letting this happen. Refs should be all over that.
This is pretty much my view.
I don't think the Lions are camped offside, I think they time it well. Sometimes the man 3rd or 4th out does get offside and gets away with it, but only sometimes.They are more onside than the average nz SR team imo. But they need to be as the rush would accentuate it if they were a metre offside like the typical NZ SR passive defence team.
The joker in the pack of refereeing the modern offside line is that often the 'last foot' is actually head and arms of an attacking team player doing naughty nonsense which stretches the length of a ruck while the defence has fanned out based on the (previous) last foot line.
So yes, I like Crucial's idea about the onus to be clearly onside , as offside is a bugbear of mine, but naughtiness of ruck cleanouts blowing over the ruck and grabbing people makes this subsequently harder to judge.
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As has been mentioned in the media over the last few days, I am expecting the ABs to bounce back like they did in Dublin last year after the loss in Chicago. That doesn't mean it will be easy but BBBR's comments yesterday reiterate that the players themselves know what is required to give themselves the best chance to win.
Even though we AB fans don't like losing, the Lions win in Wellington was exactly what the series needed. These games are called tests for a reason and everything is on the line in Auckland for the players and coaches. For those of us lucky enough to be at Eden Park, these are the games to look forward to.
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Well if we do lose the 3rd test, at least the Saders are still on top of Super rugby
The key thing for me this week is how will our attack draw in more numbers. Lions were very effective in fanning out quickly and realigning the defensive line that there were very few gaps. When there were some opportunities, the Lions scrambled well but did give away penalties.
I know some are particularly beholden to the "must take the 3", but there was at least two occasions that I had hoped we kicked to the corner and maul from 5m out to create a try. That's not a criticism of taking kicks (Barrett exceeding my expectations on that front), but I am not averse to them trying what might seem risky but has been a pretty fruitful play for us.
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Good to see Aura made her way into this article!
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Aaron Smith:
"They wanted to make it a struggle at the ruck, and we weren't able to be assertive with our carries. But we didn't help ourselves and we didn't attack where they weren't, and that's something we're going to fix this week. There was a lot more space than we thought. We've learned a lot from this game. There were opportunities there. Those opportunities will present themselves again this Saturday and we've got to be good enough to see them, and take them."
