All Blacks v Ireland II
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I'm calling bullshit on this claim that the citing commissioner decided 11 AB actions required a look at and 1 Ireland one.
For starters when has anyone ever seen these type of stats before? They aren't provided for the simple fact that they get misused. Even if they were correct (and not exaggerated by the Irish management) They narrative seems to be that the ABs are horrendous because 11!! incidents needed a look yet the one Irish one was cleared. Hello, that also means 9 AB ones were cleared of wrongdoing as well you pillocks.
I cannot believe that if the CC decided 11 things the ABs did needed him to examine them closely he still entirely dismissed Sextons high shot on BB. Comments of other refs, coaches and even Irish journalists have conceded that probably deserved a card/PT.
Yes, the CC is there to spot possible RC offences but I'm buggered if I can recall 12 potential RCs in the game so he must set his initial bar a bit lower then dismiss most of them
If I can be bothered I may watch the game again and look for these horrendous acts of brutality that were only coming from one side.
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I thought the same as well, there clearly were not 11 potential red card offences made by the ABs in that game
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@da_grubster said in Ireland II:
I thought the same as well, there clearly were not 11 potential red card offences made by the ABs in that game
And when you add in Hansen's comment after the game about our players getting neck-rolled it makes even less sense.
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Every bloody time we go north, the shrill gets louder and louder. It is an orchestrated litany of bullshit (to copy a well-known kiwi). Based on preconceived ideas, reinforced by a kind of cognitive dissonance and closed-mindedness that makes them hypocritically ignore their own actions the northern whinge fest just gets worse and worse.
Mind you I do wonder. If people only read the NZ Herald they would think the average NZ rugby fan was a rabid bloody retard.... -
@da_grubster said in Ireland II:
I thought the same as well, there clearly were not 11 potential red card offences made by the ABs in that game
Well if the TV producer didn't replay them over and over and over ... they didn't happen.
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@Samurai-Jack said in Ireland II:
Every bloody time we go north, the shrill gets louder and louder. It is an orchestrated litany of bullshit (to copy a well-known kiwi). Based on preconceived ideas, reinforced by a kind of cognitive dissonance and closed-mindedness that makes them hypocritically ignore their own actions the northern whinge fest just gets worse and worse.
Mind you I do wonder. If people only read the NZ Herald they would think the average NZ rugby fan was a rabid bloody retard....In a nutshell. Right there.
If you get your views on anything from headlines in the Daily Mail or some other bit of arse-wipe then you will think everyone's out to get you. Sensationalism everywhere. As an example there was a piece by Jerry Guscott on the BBC website with the banner "Refs should keep a closer eye on the All Blacks". Quite inflammatory in itself but...
His article was about all the weekend games and not just a piece about the All Blacks. Also that particular comment when looked at as part of his analysis of the game was actually very complimentary. Quote J. Guscott and BBC:-
'World champions New Zealand play everything at an incredible intensity. They understand the laws of the game, where the boundaries are and how the referee might react. They use it to their advantage.
But on Saturday Ireland couldn't beat a side who were playing with 14 men for 20 minutes. You have to say they should have won the game.
Referees need to look harder at New Zealand - their speed and intensity means the game moves so quickly, but they are canny. The All Blacks have to watch their high tackles - they have got a reputation for it and have had two players cited from Saturday - but for all that, you can't blame the players.
I'm not one who thinks their players go out there to hurt anyone illegally, they are sportsmen and do their best. There is ferocity in everything they do and they take everything to the limit, but it is up to the referee to be better at seeing and penalising them.' End quote.
In reality the only thing you might get sand in your panties about was the reference to high tackles but the headline screams "NZ are cheats" at you.
Context
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@Bones said in Ireland II:
@Bones said in Ireland II:
Edit: Actually, it'd be interesting to see how many of our tries this year were scored under penalty advantage.
@booboo I thought finding this kind of stat would be right up your alley...
I love my stats but wouldn't know how yo find stuff like that. Reckon that might be a @Stargazer thing.
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@Samurai-Jack said in Ireland II:
Every bloody time we go north, the shrill gets louder and louder. It is an orchestrated litany of bullshit (to copy a well-known kiwi). Based on preconceived ideas, reinforced by a kind of cognitive dissonance and closed-mindedness that makes them hypocritically ignore their own actions the northern whinge fest just gets worse and worse.
Mind you I do wonder. If people only read the NZ Herald they would think the average NZ rugby fan was a rabid bloody retard....Putting adside the comments from the great unwashed it's the bullshit that comes out of official channels that pisses me off the most.
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@Crucial said in Ireland II:
@Samurai-Jack said in Ireland II:
Every bloody time we go north, the shrill gets louder and louder. It is an orchestrated litany of bullshit (to copy a well-known kiwi). Based on preconceived ideas, reinforced by a kind of cognitive dissonance and closed-mindedness that makes them hypocritically ignore their own actions the northern whinge fest just gets worse and worse.
Mind you I do wonder. If people only read the NZ Herald they would think the average NZ rugby fan was a rabid bloody retard....Putting adside the comments from the great unwashed it's the bullshit that comes out of official channels that pisses me off the most.
Has there been much? Genuine question.
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@Catogrande I think there's quite a substantial difference between what is written in the heat of the moment and in the post match.
Murray Kinsella & Mick Cleary have both written some extremely well balanced pieces, to offset any nonsense written.
Problem is, and I'm guilty of this, is twitter & comments sections. A quick scout of those can leave you quite breathless at times, at the sheer one-eyed stupidity.
I'm still pissed about Cane though.
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OK, lets start a list of 'happenings' the CC could be looking at if this claim of 11-1 is true
Ireland
- Forearm cleanout on Sam Cane (admitted as the on the CC looked at by the Irish)
NZ
- Cane/Henshaw -cited
- Fekitoa YC- cited
- Dagg shoulder makes contact with Stander's head. Worth a look but easy to dismiss
- Retallick knee drop - wasn't a knee drop when you see what actually happens. Maybe the CC had just jotted it down to go back to
- Moody grapple around head. No tight headlock, just a tackle where the head was presented as the target down low. Worth a look but certainly no RC or even YC offence.
Edit: adjust this as I go, adding possibilities.
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@MajorRage Re you use of twitter etc. This is the main reason that TSF is the only rugby based site I follow consistently. Most of the others are just too feral and one eyed. The Haka, GWLAD, PR, G&G. It just makes me think my time would be better spent picking my rectum.
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@booboo said in Ireland II:
@Bones said in Ireland II:
@Bones said in Ireland II:
Edit: Actually, it'd be interesting to see how many of our tries this year were scored under penalty advantage.
@booboo I thought finding this kind of stat would be right up your alley...
I love my stats but wouldn't know how yo find stuff like that. Reckon that might be a @Stargazer thing.
I'm sorry to disappoint, but I've never seen stats that detailed.
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@Stargazer said in Ireland II:
@booboo said in Ireland II:
@Bones said in Ireland II:
@Bones said in Ireland II:
Edit: Actually, it'd be interesting to see how many of our tries this year were scored under penalty advantage.
@booboo I thought finding this kind of stat would be right up your alley...
I love my stats but wouldn't know how yo find stuff like that. Reckon that might be a @Stargazer thing.
I'm sorry to disappoint, but I've never seen stats that detailed.
No problem, just go back and watch all the tries/games. Let us know how you get on. Cheers
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@Bones said in Ireland II:
No problem, just go back and watch all the tries/games. Let us know how you get on. Cheers
@Stargazer you've got until Thursday to do it, because I hear that's when the team will be named and we won't want to detract from that...
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OK I'm 21 and a bit minutes in and totally confused as to why they is an outcry about this game.
I am carefully watching each contact and watching behind the play after a breakdown to see if any players are showing signs of being aggrieved as well.
It is quite bizarre as if you believe the pundits, the ABs came out of the blocks looking to hurt the Irish. There is no sign whatsoever of any over aggression at all. The are playing hard and focussed on going forward but there are no knee lifts, high hits etc except for the following
- the collision between Cane/Henshaw (accidental in my eyes, but worth investigation)
- the high tackle on BB as he scores.
- Cane taking a smash to the face from a clumsy attempt to clear him away from a ruck
- Coles coming through on the halfback with a clean out which is hard to see detail of but likely that initial contact was shoulder to shoulder
- Dagg and Stander making shoulder to shoulder contact (looks more that Stander plays as much a part in this as Dagg, he is charging forward with the ball shoulder first. Made to look bad because Stander is brought down from behind as contact with Dagg is made)
- the Rettalick 'knee drop' on SOB which isn't actually a knee drop. SOB takes out BBBR around the knees beside a ruck and twists around him. BBBR throws his arms in the air as there is an element of risk to his knees here. The 'tackle' ends up with SOB lying prone with BBBR kneeling on top of him. He was pulled there by the tackle.
All of these incidents were pretty normal rugby (apart from the unfortunate collision). Absolutely no sign of over-aggression or even intent to hit harder than normal. Especialy not to maim (as some claim). In fact the ABs clap Henshaw off in the usual sporting manner.
The weird bit is that the Irish have a whinge to Peyper (just after the Cane ruck and Coles clean out ) about shoulder charging as if it is happening constantly yet the Coles possible one was the only time it had occurred.
I am starting to wonder if there is a bit of 'clever' coaching or gamesmanship going on in these early stages which the stupid commentators are totally buying in to despite the lack of evidence.
One thing that is very noticeable is that the Irish ball carriers are leading with their heads down. It could well be that, given the directive from WR, they decided that if you do this then there is a great chance of getting the tackler sanctioned as any tackle shoulder on shoulder can look like a high shot. The ABs are initiating contact when carrying with a good crouch but with heads up. The Irish are charging with heads down and forward inviting high contact. Was this planned? Was Best getting in Peyper's ear to set the scene?
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Went back to watch some more.
There was a different shot of the Dagg/Stander one and there is contact with the head. Most likely one of the ones looked at as suspected but also easy to dismiss. It is Stander charging that initiates contact, Dagg more bracing for impact than driving forward. Worth a look but nothing deliberate.
However, here's the crunch. Moody gets pinged for a high tackle (which is exactly one of these ones I described where the Irish ball carrier leads with the head). Bit clumsy from Moody as he hooks the arm around the neck. Fair penalty but nothing more. What then happens is that the Irish commentators say "this is getting ridiculous now, every single breakdown there are shoulder charges and high tackles. It has to stop. It has to be dealt with".
Now this is the seed that has surely been planted in the fans minds. It is nothing like that at all. There has been one accidental collision, one possible shoulder to shoulder from Coles (which the comms didn't even notice) and one grab around the head on a charging player offering no other place to grab (not an excuse, a fact). Meanwhile it is being escalated among the fans that there is a malicious plan from the ABs to play dirty.
I note that this is all during a good period of play from the Irish that isn't getting them much reward and frustration is building especially with the penalty only call on Read detaching.I also haven't seen too much out of the ordinary decision wise from Peyper. I disagree with the call on Smith, but then other refs may agree with it. Again, the comms have made it look like he isn't in control by disputing his handling of the Cane/Henshaw incident, making out that he was very unsure about the BB grounding but bottled it (it actually sounds to me like he is simply trying to make sure he hears the TMO correctly and there aren't crossed wires as the crowd is making a racket over the replays), and then intimating that he is allowing the ABs to target heads and do shoulder charges every ruck. In fact the only one he missed was the Dagg one and he may have actually made a judgement on that.
I actually think the post match assessment on Peyper up to this point is probably quite good although you would point out that the team should make sure they don't miss the wood for the trees when looking at a try replay. They really should have noticed the high tackle even if they dismissed it.
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I'm not going to bother picking through the rest of the game. I'm pretty sure the seed of 'dirty play' has been sown by this point. Fekitoa adds plenty of fertiliser.
The call from the comms has come from too much emotion, too much hyperbole and too much frustration with their own team's inability to convert good play into good points. They are looking for someone to blame and pointing fingers at the ref and opposition.Still call bullshit on this 11-1 thing as well. I am really scratching to add things to the AB list that wouldn't even be looked at in a school game let alone a pro test match and adding any contact above the shoulders from the ABs while having to ignore the high shot on BB
